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(AP photo)
Greek Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos talks to reporters after talks broke off with private bondholders on a plan to head off default.
Friday the 13th was not a good day for Europe.
In the midst of the European trading day, news began circulating that credit agency Standard and Poor's would downgrade many eurozone countries, including France, Italy and Spain. Given Europe's deepening financial problems, that move had been widely expected.
What traders and investors did not expect was for talks to break down between Greek officials and bondholders over how to avoid a looming default.
"While we're all focusing the S&P cuts, we could come back next week and find out that Greece is about to go right over the edge," said Art Cashin, head of trading for UBS at the New York Stock Exchange.
After talks with creditor banks broke down, Greeks officials warned of "catastrophic" results if a deal to swap bonds is not reached soon. After more than three months of negotiations, the parties remain badly divided over how much Greece will end up paying and how big a hit the banks will take.
S&P, which took away the cherished AAA rating from U.S. government securities in August, took the same step with France Friday, cutting the rating one notch to AA+.
“This is not a catastrophe. It’s an excellent rating. But it’s not good news,” Finance Minister Francois Baroin told France 2 television, saying the government would not respond with further austerity measures.
S&P also downgraded eight other countries, including Austria and Slovakia by one notch and Italy, Spain and Portugal by two notches. Cyprus, Malta and Slovenia were also downgraded. S&P gave a negative outlook to 14 eurozone countries, meaning there is a one-in-three chance they could be downgrded again in 2012 or 2013. Only Germany and Slovakia were given "stable" outlooks.
"Today's rating actions are primarily driven by our assessment that the policy initiatives that have been taken by European policymakers in recent weeks may be insufficient to fully address ongoing systemic stresses in the eurozone," S&P said in a statement. The agency cited, among other factors, tightening credit, weakening growth prospects, and "an open and prolonged dispute among European policymakers over the proper approach to address challenges."
S&P said a summit meeting last month "has not produced a breakthrough of sufficient size and scope to fully address the eurozone's financial problems."
Meanwhile the International Monetary Fund tried to calm markets after the collapse of the Greek debt talks, issuing a terse statement.
“We look forward to the resumption of talks between Greece and its creditors," said a spokesman. "It is important that this lead to a (private sector) agreement that, together with the efforts of the official sector, ensures debt sustainability.”
Time is running out for Athens. The Greek economy is sinking under the weight of deep budget cuts and rising borrowing costs. Investors are fleeing Greek bonds. After months of failed debt talks, Greece needs a deal with bankers to avoid default before some 14.5 billion euros ($18.4 billion) worth of debt comes due March 20. Even if bankers agree to a deal, it could take as long as six weeks to process the debt swap.
When the idea first was floated in October, banks were told they should expect to lose half the value of their Greek debt holdings. But because Greece's finances have deteriorated since then, bankers reportedly are being asked to swallow losses of 70 percent.
The debt deal is also critical to efforts to provide Greece a financial lifeline. Officials from the European Union, International Monetary Fund and European Central Bank arrive in Athens Tuesday for talks on a new, 130-billion-euro rescue plan. They are reportedly insisting on a final debt agreement with bondholders as a condition of the bailout.
Some investors think a default is inevitable, with dire consequences for other debt-burdened European countries.
"Investors are going to say, 'Where else could this happen?'" said an investment manager at Shelter Harbor Capital. "'Why would I ever buy a French or Spanish or Italian bond if after you buy it you can change the rules on me?' That's why Greece is important even though it's a small country and not a lot of money in the grand scheme of things."
News of the imminent downgrades and the Greek talks knocked European stocks lower, although U.S. markets took the news in stride. The Dow Jones Industrial average was down only 54 points in late trading. The euro fell to a 16-month low.
"It's a reminder to investors that we are not seeing a comprehensive road map for the eurozone economies to get out of this fiscal mess. We're not seeing a move toward fiscal union," said Richard Batty, strategist at Standard Life Investments.
Investors and bankers aren't the only ones concerned about the risk that Europe's debt crisis goes off the rails. As the U.S. economy struggles to regain its footing, Europe appears to be sliding into recession.
That slowdown is already being felt on U.S. shores. Fresh trade data Friday showed U.S. exports slowed last month.
"The widening in the trade deficit in November to a 10-month high is perhaps the first real sign that the crisis in Europe and the more general global slowdown is starting to take its toll on the U.S.," said Paul Dales, senior U.S. economist at Capital Insight.
U.S. exports have been a driving force in the economy's improvement in 2011, but growth remains weak. After expanding by 1.3 percent in the second quarter, the pace picked up to 1.8 percent in the third quarter. Based on other economic data, that momentum is believed to have carried over into the fourth quarter. The government will release its first estimate of fourth-quarter GDP Jan. 27.
Part of that improvement was the result of increased consumer spending. With wages stalled, consumers have begun tapping their savings and credit cards to keep spending, a trend economists warn is not sustainable. That's why many of them have trimmed their growth forecasts.
Dales and his colleagues at Capital Insight estimate U.S. GDP hit a 2.2 percent annual growth rate in the fourth quarter and then began weakening. They expect the pace to slow to 1.5 percent for 2012 as a whole.
That would leave the U.S. economy little cushion from the potential financial shock of a disorderly debt default by one or more European countries.
Related:
Housing market just great -- for foreign buyers
Marc Faber, editor and publisher of the Gloom, Boom & Doom Report, discusses the S&P downgrade of France and other European countries. He believes they should be downgraded even further.
Leave a Comment:
That's what happens when you Capitalize profits and Socialize losses.
The USA was downgraded by S&P
http://tinyurl.com/44xrv4f
The reason ..
Compared with previous projections, our revised base case scenario now
assumes that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, due to expire by the end of 2012,
remain in place. We have changed our assumption on this because the majority
of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise
revenues, a position we believe Congress reinforced by passing the act. Key
macroeconomic assumptions in the base case scenario include trend real GDP growth of 3% and consumer price inflation near 2% annually over the decade.
I think all countries should declare bankruptcy and screw the central bank to which all this debt is owed. the central bank made bad loans and should collapse. What the hell do they want? Bail out?
And who is S&P to downgrade anyone? they are a downgraded company themselves. Wake up people they are herding us like sheep.
Which bank are you talking about? Do you even know what a "central bank" is?
I agree, this "crisis" is nothing more than the free-marketeers attempting to force the privatization of all public assets. This is just more of the same Milton Freidman style scare tactics. Screw the IMF, screw the World Bank and SCREW Standards and Poors!
I heard Greece has already proposed a solution: They are sending a ginormous wooden horse to Berlin in exchange for another bailout. Lucky Germans.
DingleB, is it full of condoms?
I think Albert Einstein said that the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. The Central Banks of the world printing mountains of money has been the problem but it continues to be their solution. Insane or...?
kyrnt we all jist pyrant morr dolla$?
Let Greece collapse already. The banks that made bets there screwed up and they will pay the price for their risk. However, help out the countries that will actually pay back their debt and don't let those backing good debt pay the price for those who should pay for their bad investments.
All the world's major or "central" banks are all owned by the same handful of people, the same dynasties. They and their dynastic ruling class cohorts will see to it that we are all kept in check.
Yes, Barry, I do know what the Central Bank is. I've done my own research, you should too. Bunch of sick people running our world.
papa 12,
"And who is S&P to downgrade anyone?"
Yes, indeed, especially considering S&P's own poor performance in the scandal that led to the recession of 2007/2008! They have been going around downgrading countries credit ratings right and left as if they're trying to start a war. What about the other credit rating agencies such as Moody's? Why is it only S&P that is doing all this downgrading? They seem to think they are the Emperor of the World!
They must somehow have ties with msnbc, Wall Street, blanket media, propaganda.
What economy? Every time I open the mail my basic needs (unless I move into a cave) go up in cost, you can't buy anything when the energy and insurance companies take every cent you have. My taxes are nothing next to these crooks.
The same cable TV and phone lines that still service my house from 30 years ago at $10 and $12 a month, are now over $100 a month. Companies have fewer employees and the cost just keeps raising - who runs these rip offs? No wonder Disney owns half the USA. The Enrons and World Coms didn't go away, now they just get bailed out.
Why would anybody open a small business when consumers don't have any money to buy stuff? Consumers determine the flow of money...and the rivers run dry now.
They're suckin' us dry.
Can't wait until this balloon bursts.
papa & Mickey - the other service either have already downgraded or are going to downgrade these countries.
S&P wasn't the cause - toxic mortgages made to government specifications was the cause.
At this pace we are next for another downgrade, we are following the steps to the socialist countries that can leave with their means, spend the money they don't have to create big government and make a population dependent of the government for education, health, housing, unemployment ,retirement and more. They already pay 50% in taxes but that in not enough, Great Britain, Spain, France elect governments conservatives who are cutting their budget to reduce their deficit and fix their economy. Here we are going for another another record this year 16 trillion of dollars in debt thanks to Obamanomic and his policy of big expending. We don't need 4 more years of the same.
DB Akron,
"the other service either have already downgraded or are going to downgrade these countries."
You might be right, but I have not heard of any other agency downgrading any country except S&P. Maybe you know something I don't. And it was S&P's job to catch those toxic mortgages you referred to, which they failed to do.
There really would not have been a market for the "toxic mortgages" without the blessing of S&P and the other ratings agencies. They were either in on the scam or totally incompetent. Either way they have no credibility.
Well, the wealthy and world banks have now just about completed their take over of all these countries.
Investors, driving monetary policies, are pushing their political agendas world wide.
Were all subservient now to the 1%.
Anybody know how one goes about purchasing credit default swaps on France, Italy & Spain...I've got at least a $20-spot to throw down.
This isn't about subservience to the one percent, its about a socialist agenda, a government simply cannot afford to be everything to everyone and when you tax the wealthy to make that happen, they don't have the dollars to put back into the economy in investments. There is definitely greed with the one percent and seriously problems but think about it. The government isn't in the investment business, that is just money spent, the more they take, the less is there for fuel for the economy.
Okay I am done defending republicans for this decade, I got a little sick.
brokencitizen ... somehow, I doubt that you do know what a "central bank" is, especially since the central bank of Europe has stayed out of the whole mess until just a few months ago.
What is a Liberal progressive? Liberal's believe in central banking, big oil, big business and no competition, paper money over the gold standard. Liberal progressives are republican and Democrats that believe in central banking and unregulated wall street markets!
Liberal believe documentation of corporations have human rights to own things (only humans can own something) Human being defined as one heart beat, blood flow/pressure, one brain one skeleton... not a collective of minds. Liberal Progressives trump the constitution!
Breaking news: The people with the money also have power. In other news, water is still wet.
When has it ever been different? You say they've completed their takeover. Huh? Money and power have always gone together. People act like this is a new a radical thing, but it's at least as old as mankind. Some say prostitution is the oldest profession. That's a lie perpetrated by politicians to hide the fact that politicians perfected prostitution and then moved on to tougher tactics.
Let me ask you (the you is intended as the plural "you" reflecting anyone reading this) this: where else would you expect to see the wealth than in the hands of the powerful and where else would you expect to see the power except in the hands of the wealthy? Here's the real question: would you do any different?
Liar.
Barry - why do you want to pick a fight with me? Did I say something to scare you?
History has a way of repeating itself if you keep doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I am amazed at some of the comments, I realize now how so many Americans have no clue to how this began, who started it, and who is still in control of de-valuing of our currency's! It is actually the writting on the wall, and so very few have a clue to what the writing is telling the American people! Hey America, you folks need to start reading history. Here's is a good starting point. Search this paper. Collateral Damage-911-black_eagle_fund_trust. That is a very good starting point. Then go watch: Inside Job this will explain why the bailout occurred, and who allowed it to happen, and why it is effecting the worlds economy. What many Americans do not comprehend, is what really 911 was about! I found the documentary on a torrent site, it is possible to get it streaming. Interesting how it is a little difficulty to locate, that should explain to you guys about very important information it devildges. The same with the paper, it is in pdf format. Down load and share with oters, and then research it for yourself. You will become disguisted. And if you want to know about the government within our government. Go watch: JFK2. And research his findings for oyurself, like I did. Knowledge is Power!
Europe is in dire straits because of its unmanageable debt caused by still one more attempt at creating a
socialist workers paradise. Now, all they can do is akin to putting lipstick on a pig because any meaningful reform is instantly thwarted by riots or the threat of riots. They are going rapidly down the tubes and thanks to Obama and his ineptocrats, we’re hot on their heels.
It continues to amaze and amuse that there are still some posters that insist our own miserable situation is caused solely by congress refusal to raise taxes on the wealthy. Yes, those nasty wealthy where the top 5% already pay more in taxes than the other 95% combined. Yet, at every opportunity Obama drones on about these wealthy needing to pay their fair share, but purposely avoids actually espousing what his definition of fair share is.
"S&P also downgraded eight other countries, including Austria and Slovakia by one notch and Italy, Spain and Portugal by two notches. Cyprus, Malta and Slovenia were also downgraded. S&P gave a negative outlook to 14 eurozone countries, meaning there is a one-in-three chance they could be downgrded again in 2012 or 2013. Only Germany and Slovakia were given "stable" outlooks."
Look at the first and last sentences...atrocious editing here!
Wasn't it Obama that said, in his infinite wisdom .... "let's put a higher tax on small business!" Whoa ... dude .. are you really that stupid?? Yes he is!!
Wasn't it Obama who has printed money like toilet paper so that the dollar has devalued for the first time in US history ... which will lead to rampant inflation? Yup .. he's the guy!!
Wasn't it Obama that has pushed the unemployment up to 9% or blown 2 million jobs in the US out of the water. Oh yeah ... he's the one!!
Wasn't it Obama at during his last campaign that flat out swore ... "I won't raise the deficit another dollar and then has grown it by 5 trillion?? Oh Barry ... it was you again!! (liar)
You want the next generation to thrive .... get rid of this completely inept person who has absolutely no leadership skills and whose 1st term has been a failure!
DougCoe22201
Hmmmm.
Doug, you do realize that all public assets originated from the private sector. Right?
I hope with all the evidence around us of the collapsing nanny-states in the EU we wake up from our century long obtunding of progressivism and Keynesian economic nonsense and right our nation.
By the end of this year we will be ominously close to a $17 Trillion dollar National Debt. This is a Debt/GDP ratio of nearly 115%. With no economic policy from this administration the hope that this will change is doubtful.
Obama's feeble attempt to appear as a free-market advocate by consolidating a few agencies today, to save a whopping $3 billion dollars over 10 years, is proof of his absolute inability at economic policy. As the EU collapses, so will we. As our main trading partner, its impending recession will cause our economy to finally collapse also.
Our next credit downgrade, once again, will be the Democrats fault as they are incapable of any reasonable fiscal discipline. We saw this last August as Obama repeatedly moved the goal-posts during negotiations.
This will make for a very interesting presidential race as Obama tries to defend his incompetence and the complete collapse of our economy.
not to mention it was Obama who signed the NDAA, ALLOWING AMERICANS as well as everyone else TO BE INDEFINITELY DETAINED.
We are next to collapse. We are at 15.2 trillion in debt, Obama is asking for more than another 1.4 trillion and eventually we all will be in a Great Depression worldwide.
Maybe if the 1%ers weren't hoarding all the cash and keeping the rest of us in debt, none of this would even be happening.
Where exactly did all this 15 trillion go to? I'm sure most of it went into politicians pockets and the 1%ers pockets as well.
REVOLUTION 2012
Another great film to see is "Thrive: What On Earth Will It Take" google it. Worth every penny.
Justified Defiance..........wasn't it Obama who said no to the Keystone pipeline, 20,000 jobs and cheaper oil from Canada? Wasn't it Obama who went around congress and gave billions to Muslim rebels?
Actually, those toxic mortgages were in contradiction to government specifications. This is one reason that several state AG's are prosecuting BoA, who now owns Countrywide, who was making illegal, sub-prime loans. The foreclosure prosecutions are getting the most press right now, but the mortgages were getting more press in 2010/2011.
You're about 540 degrees out of whack, there, allycat5st (yes, I did mean 540 degrees, this person's comment is so far past 180 degrees, they have gone completely around, and continued for another 180 degrees). Everything you described as being the beliefs of liberal progressives are, for the most part, things that liberal progressive fight against. It is amazing how utterly wrong you are.
And for all of you blaming socialist policies, you might want to check out Germany. Strong unions, high wages at all levels, less income disparity, universal healthcare, strong social safety net, and . . . wait for it . . . a very strong economy. Go figure.
See whats happening now, its all because of Dubya. Dubya left this country in shambles, a total economical self destruction. If the teanuts and repubes aren't voted out of office, it will destroy this country economically for a very, very long time to come. The repubes and teanuts just want to destroy the middle class and continue with their supporter Koch's plan and its time to put a stop to them, now.
brokencitizen
Thanks brokencitizen. Here's a link where anyone can see the full film at for free.
http://www.documentarywire.com/thrive-what-on-earth-will-it-take
DingleB "I heard Greece has already proposed a solution: a wooden horse."
Beware of Greeks bearing gifts.
I wonder where that saying came from? lol
DB Akron "Can't wait until this balloon bursts.....S&P wasn't the cause - toxic mortgages made to government specifications was the cause."
Very true - thanks to Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac and their loose lending practices. For the details about Goldman Sachs dirty fingers in the mess, the following link is 'priceless';
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/how-goldman-sachs-made-tens-of-billions-of-dollars-from-the-economic-collapse-of-america-in-four-easy-steps
brokencitizen
"I think all countries should declare bankruptcy and screw the central bank to which all this debt is owed. the central bank made bad loans and should collapse. What the hell do they want? Bail out?"
All socialists want the/any government to bail them out for their excesses. Blame the wealthy is the motto, instead of blaming themselves for the excesses they could never afford but wanted others to pay for.
Hell in a hand basket comes to mind.
Spending more than you make or produce is what got America, and the world, to this point. Of course some will whine about the 1% but the truth is that the 99% doing the whining dug themselves so deep because of their own stupidity they want to blame everyone/anyone except themselves for their own greed.
Social programs are the greed that is destroying economies. There was a time when those who got old or disabled depended on family. Today, that has change to government, governments trying to perpetuate themselves and grow at the expense of those who work, but throw those who work to the curb when they cannot do it anymore. Then there are those who never bothered to work because they knew government would bail them out for a vote. Too bad that is the norm today.
You are born, you live, you die. What happens in between is supposed to be on you and your family. Not others. Unfortunately there are few families today. Less than 50%. They were created by lust and without future thought. Societies of all kinds are doomed because of the selfishness of lust without commitment.
Joe-1072601,
If you are a representative of just how little the Demoncraptic Party knows, the US and the Rest of the World is in serious trouble.
I will explain in very simple terms that even my Afghan Students understand.
First, you cannot spend what you do not already have in your wallet and then expect to make money to pay for it or cut all the necessary things that you previously Budgeted for. example: No Budgeted for $1.7 Trillion to $2.1 Trillion President Obama's Health Care Reform Act. So Budget Cuts to all other previously Budgeted US Programs (and you and the Demoncraptic Party believing that there will not be severe repercussions, including adding to the US Economic Problems).
Second, most important, the US and Worldwide Economy is not instant gratification, like your two second masturbation. It takes years for something to happen. So in 1999 and 2000 after President Clinton signed into US Law, two US Laws that removed the US Laws that made Illegal the Causes of the 1907 Depression and the 1929-1939 Great Depression, those that knew the consequences saw the opportunities to make Millions of USDs from Thousands, Billlions from Millions USDs, Trillions from Billions USDs. President Clinton was warned by the US Congressional Research Agency NOT to sign these two US Laws, he did anyway because he saw an opportunity also to make money, just like most have found out about how US Congress has been using Insider knowledge to make money based on the US Laws they are passing; the same way he made lots of money by giving China Most Favored Trade Nation Status, and received enough money from the Chinese to start the Clinton Foundation, as stated during his Impeachment Hearings as "Chinagate". The US Laws that were removed by President Clinton worked from 1933 to 2000 to keep the US out of another Great Depression. These US Laws were created after years of failed Regulation, so the Causes were outright made Illegal.
For your simplistic mind this example: You go to a Financial Institution for a loan for something you cannot afford (what Bob-3374873 mentions, post #1.44). Because of the removal of the US Laws by President Clinton as well as the passage of US Law Community Reinvestment Act (forcing Fininacial Institutitions to provide Loans to those that cannot afford them), it is perfectly Legal for the Financial Insitution to also buy a Credit Default on you as well as the Insurance. In most cases the Credit Default (if you fail to pay your Loan) and the Insurance (as a Derivative) will pay more than if you paid all of your Loan with Interest. So just like during the Great Depression the Financial Institution can Legally create those situations that will cause you to default on your Loan. This is exactly what happened during the Great Depression as to how many US Farmers "Lost the Farm", as the same Financial Institution that held the Farms Mortgage then refused to Loan the Farmer money to buy seeds, fertilizer, etc. to make a profit to then pay off the Loans and Mortgage. This is the same as the current "Mortgage Crisis" and "Credit Crisis" as occured during the Great Depression and is occuring now as the "Housing Crisis" and the "Credit Crisis" (Businesses not able to get Investments, after President Obama chased the "Rich" out of the US again with his "Tax the Rich", "Rich Pay Their Fair Share", just like happened during the Great Depression, and when he chased the Richest Person In the World out of the US as Candidate (Senator) Obama.).
Third, the Removal of these US Laws by President Clinton also made Legal Financial Weapons of Mass Destruction, as to like what ROY WILSON-336103, mentions that Goldman Sachs did to Greece. The others upcoming are Portugal, Spain, Italy, Ireland, France, Great Britain, Germany, etc.. Financial Weapons of Mass Destruction, are capable of destroying entire Governments and their Nation's Economies.
Fourth, within the US the effects started to build up from 1999 to 2008 to $60 Trillion to $100 Trillion as the "Global Economic Crisis" consisting of the "Mortgage Crisis", "Wall Street Crisis", "Financial Crisis", "Banking Crisis", "Credit Crisis", etc..
Fifth, since like you President Obama, the Demoncrapts do not understand what happened (as well as insiders like them making tons of money), they have NOT as their First Priority Reinstated these US Laws that made Illegal the Causes of previous Depression, as to why the US is currently in a Depression NOT a Recession. Do you even KNOW why it was President Obama's First Priority to pass Health Care Reform and not Reinstate the US Laws to finally stop this mess; can you say Unlimited Corporate Campaign Contributions from the "Insurance Industry", "Medical Device Industry", "Pharmascueticals Industry" as President Obama's Buddy "Mr. Corporate America" (A Demoncrap) Legal Briefed the US Supreme Court prior to the Citizens United Case was even heard by the US Supreme Court, as either legalize Unlimited Corporate Campaign Contributions or make Invalid the 2008 -2009 Elections, for "Mr.Corporate America's" admitted violations of the US Law, McCain Feingold Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act, prior to and during the 2008-2009 Elections. After the US Supreme Court Ruling, "Mr.Corporate America" was slapped on the wrist with a fine of $200,000 for violating US Law, instead of being thrown in Prision. President Obama after the US Supreme Court Ruling receives $1 Billion USDs of Unlimited Corporate Campaign Contributions from the Insurance Industry, Medical Device Industry, and Pharmascuticals Industry. I gave you enough clues as to who President Obama's Buddy "Mr. Corporate America" is, I gave you motives, now go do the research to see for yourself.
Sixth, this is not over yet, as President Obama still has not reinstated the US Laws that make Illegal the Causes of the 1907 Depression, 1929-1939 Great Depression, and the current "Global Economic Crisis", as the Next "Crisis" of $54.6 Trillion USDs is building up, that will Permanently sink the US into a worse than Great Depression. As President Obama is currently destroying the only thing that is keeping the US out of a Great Depression and previously did get the US out of the 1929-1939 Great Depression, if you do not know what President Obama is destroying, again do the research (Hint: Created by President FDR to get the US out of the 1929-1939 Great Depression, after his New Deal to the American People Failed).
The blame that President Bush gets pertaining to this matter is that he did not reinstate those US Laws either, and not doing a President Obama and Democraptic Party blame game (in this case though blaming the right persons (President Clinton and US Congress) for the screwed up US Economy).
Is that simple enough for you, Joe-1072601.
In a sane world the corrupt @!$%#s who run S&P would be in jail not rating the credit worthiness of whole nations, causing their people even more misery from higher interest rates.
S & P and the other ratings agency had a large hand in causing the recession that caused the European deficits by giving Triple A ratings to the garbage securities that were backed by sub prime mortgages.
They did this to get the fees for doing the rating.
The criminals at the ratings agencies should be in orange jump suits in Gitmo not running around loose.
The partial audit of the Federal Reserve(a complete audit was denied by the fed governing board), shows that they transferred 16 trillion dollars from 2007-2011 to European banks to cover their massive losses in the hedge fund and derivative market; ALL THE MONEY, was brokered by pledging future social security tax payments from American workers. They have bankrupted American workers retirement system, so now Congress must convince the American people that this was never earned by them, but was a entitlement gift from their benevolent government in Washington, (glass-stegal, glass stegal, once repealed the casino was open )
The GOP trolls are out in force. While those of us who have jobs and skills are trying to improve the world, the trolls are on the boards posting disinformation.
The gold standard did nothing to stabilize the economy, eliminate market bubbles or prevent depressions. This maybe old history but it is nevertheless AMERICAN history. After the Civil War, the U.S. experienced no less than FIVE major market crashes and asset bubbles (including for a precious metal - namely silver) before the BIG ONE in 1929. They all formed on the basis of the same sort of politically driven nonsense you see today and due to a tiny minority trying to manipulate the overall market. Market bubbles and economic crashes are due to human stupidity and vanity - a supply of which seems infinite; it never runs dry and continues to flow today.
Any attempts to imbue magical powers in a static asset (like gold) is nothing more than the modern equivalent of idol worship. Any attempts to think that if we just let markets be (and idolize the prophets of that philosophy) is nothing more than the modern equivalent of a religious cult.
The truth is that human beings are flawed and laws exist to temper (but cannot eliminate) them. Do you really think that the way to end all murders is to remove the law that makes murders illegal and the police that enforce them? That has been the mistake of the past generation. We need to restore the regulations and institutions that maintained the balance the U.S. economy once had between employers/employees, finance/investors and electorate/politics. When the firewalls that governed a fair and just system were removed, it was inevitable that the bad choices we have today were going to arise. At least, it is evident to those who were paying attention and really understand human nature.
If you read all of this and you still don't get it, go back to sleep.
A liberal (in the original definition) is the tradition that established the U.S. Constitution. It is the tradition that limits the power of ANY institution in society (including private ones) in order to prevent the sort of unjust and ineffective political and economic practices that are evident today. Our liberal Founders wrote the Constitution to create the checks and balances to build a successful GOVERNMENT AND SOCIETY because they understood that government was a necessity and that its success required that people participate in its success. It required BOTH a LEGITIMATE AND JUST government as well as private institutions. These insitutions served very different spheres of needs in society.
A libertarian is just a new term introduced to CONFUSE people into thinking that the philosophy of eliminating government regulation in favor of individualism is the same. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME AT ALL. Libertarians seem to have lost the notions of legitimate authority and personal responsibility along the way.
These omissions are the things that have led to the ballooning of the national and consumer debt, the rising trade deficit, the asset bubbles, the sort of immoral nonsense that is at the center of our financial markets and the elimination of the various regulations and institutions that once limited the destructive effects of the worst human fallacies. It tried to replace the role of government with private institutions that were ill-constructed for those purposes.
If you read all of this and you still don't get it, go back to sleep.
This is what happens when Spending > Revenues every year.
This is NOT a hard formula or concept.
Until Spending < Revenues then nothing is going to change.
Quicken is a wonderful piece of software.
I see the Obama-bashers are out in full force as usual. Obama didn't cause the problems in the Eurozone. Obama didn't cause the collapse of our economy, Bush and his puppet masters did... Obama is trying to clean up the mess. This is very basic stuff that no matter how hard you spin you can't change.
Besides, who do you propose to fix the ailing world economy? Mitt Romney! LOL
Clinton and his administration dismantled the safeguards that had been in place limiting the exposure the American consumer and economy to reckless speculation and mindless spending without control. Is Bush to blame of course not, that simply is more of the left wing bashing to cover the blame for their own mistakes in governing. The Bush administration tried repeatedly to rein in the worse abuses only to be thwarted by idiots like Barney Franks, Nancy Pelosi and yep obama. Obama simply found unique ways to waste trillions of tax payer dollars through one failed scheme after the other and called them stimulus packages, Amazing all those "job" programs only seemed to be focused toward the 12% of Americans that are union members - ever wonder why ever job program by obama and his henchmen was focused toward the police, fire fighters and teachers? Amazing that each of those occupations are dominated by unions - essentially those trillions of wasted tax payer money was simply funneled to union coffers and then siphoned back to obama in the guise of campaign contributions.
Does anyone spell-check this stuff?
It's all going to end very badly...just wish I knew exactly when 'tipping-point' will be reached.
It sure is going to end badly, and many know it. What isn't being said is why was these countries ratings brought down in the first place. Is there something they know that is coming or about to happen.
Read post# 1.45.
Spellcheck anyone????
You only need one question mark at the end. It is called Gramar
who crs abot splng nymore? old ppl do.
Hookt awn fonix werkt phor mee!!
Takers..... are outnumbering..... contributers. Very Simple math. people!!!!
Only because good jobs are lacking everywhere, midwesterner.
If there were enough good jobs available, contributors would be outnumbering the takers--lets not forget that, nor that most people who aren't working want to be working. No one who has character enjoys being unemployed, but a great deal of Jack-holes here seem to believe all of the unemployed merely want a free ride or didn't work hard enough.
Carl, I hope you were joking. Gramar, indeed.
"Only because good jobs are lacking everywhere"........NOBODY WANTS TO WORK!!!!!! IT'S A GIVE ME , GIVE ME, SOCIETY. PEOPLE LIKE YOU JUST FLAT DON'T GET IT!!!!!
Here is an excellent article to explain "takers" versus "makers." I had no idea that the overwhelming majority of the rich were liberals until now, and now understand why it is not a contradiction to be such. Read this - it is a wonderful clear explanation and should put the lie to rest that the GOP is the party of the rich.
http://nikitas3.com/1083/why-are-so-many-rich-people-liberals/
Carl, when I took grammar in elementary school, it was customary to end each sentence with either a period, a question mark or and exclamation mark.
Grammar was also, most commonly written with two of the letter 'm', not one.
I try not nit-pick too much on spelling and punctuation errors; we all make them. But when you are casting stones at others, you should at least make sure that your aim is good.
Watermoon....... Your article is spot-on-correct!!!!! Thanks for the article it is so revealing.
Speaking of punctuation, that first comma is incorrect as neither of the first two phrases is an independent clause.
Yup, midwesterner and Watermoon, it is because most people that keep voting the republican ticket are poor and stupid. LOL, and I am not even a democrat. I see the hypocrisy on both sides, but I have to tell you that those that vote republican really do not know the difference from propaganda and fact, rarely research anything (they love a good sound byte), and often come at you with something like this:
PJ Spot on. I finally flushed the GOP after 49+ years. The group of morons running it now are pitiful.
To: AG99,
FU big timer - - now spell check that.
Pj,if that is what you believe about republicans in general,then this world will not get better until you and the dem-knockers can come together to solve our issues.Division keeps the 1% happy.Division drives the do-nothings that run your government,and voting strait ticket ballots does absolutely nothing for the U.S. government,or any other government.It just gives all the leverage to what ever money is in control.If you believe that dems or republicans have their voters in mind,then think again!We are just here to give them votes,and be crapped on.
Ouch!
Remember folks,the only ones who win in these times control the money.Who does that better than the bankers?If they fail,they get a bailout.If they don't get bailouts,they hold the country hostage.Greece will default,it is a given.The people of Greece want default.The U.S. will print money until China won't loan it,and that may be shortly.I say,the sooner,the better,for we have absolutely no intentions of cutting our spending.If China cuts our credit,we can tell them to shove it,and then maybe we will build it over here again.Wouldn't that be special?
@ Watermoon
I read through the material on your link, but there are no studies/facts to back up the blog material. Anyone can write a blog, but where are the studies/facts to support the statements????//
JustOlJoe,
If you have time (and if you don't have time, make time) research who "Mr.Corporate America" is. Doing your own research is more important than me spoon feeding you. You will not only be surprised; but, you will also see all the other things that "Mr. Corporate America" was involved in. And we are not only talking about Wealth, we are also talking about Power and Influence Nationally and Internationally.
Not going to happen for so many reasons. 1. Local, City, State Business Taxes, Business Property Taxes, Business Licenses increased to make up Budget Shortfalls (loss of revenue from individual Property Taxes, the Foreclosures, as the "Mortgage Crisis", see post#1.45)., 2. 35% Business Taxes one of the Highest in the World (other Nations are 6-9% inclusive, so US is number 1. above (Local, City, State Taxes) plus number 2. (35% Taxes).)., 3. Acceptable Fault Tolerances of US Labor Intensive versus Chinese Automated. Acceptable Fault Tolerances as the Physical Measure of "Quality", unfortunately for US Consumers, the US Buyers buy the cheap Chinese products to make the most profits, not the high quality that the Chinese buy for themselves., 4. The Consumer Costs (Prices) US Handmade Labor Intensive (Human Error) versus Chinese Fully Automated (Continuous Laser Measurements). 5. Lack of "Rich" US and Foreign Business Investors, as chased out of the US previously by Candidate (Senator) Obama, the Richest Person in the World left the US, knowing from the Elitist Electoral College that Candidate Obama would become President, so the Richest Person In the World could lose $10 Billion then or later lose $100 Billion, the other "Rich" emulating his successes also left the US. First Casualty was CompUSA (Bankruptcy Closure), then Sears Holdings (Bankruptcy Reorganization), K Mart (Bankruptcy Reorganization), Circuit City (Bankruptcy Closure), Aloha Airlines (Bankruptcy Closure), etc. (long list of US Businesses that the Richest Person in the World invested in at the US). So the Richest Person In the World explained to all his Managers why he was abandoning the US and us (before I got recalled to Active Duty again). In 2011, it was reported that the Richest Person in the World was correct, as he lost $10 Billion USDs. This is why without his hundreds of Billions USDs Demoncraptic Party Controlled US Congress had to pass the November December 2008 Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) to buy the Electoral College Votes (again reference "Mr. Corporate America's" (A Demoncrap) Role, as "Time Sensitive" (no Public Scurtiny) just in time to buy the January 2009 Electoral College Votes. Bush is not completely blameless as he got some TARP too for University Park, Texas; however, the majority (physical locations for TARP Recipients listed by Business Week) was for Demoncraps. 6. Repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results, as "Tax the Rich", "Rich Pay Their Fair Share" is exactly what happened at Great Britain, resulting in the "Rich" British and Foreign Investors fleeing Great Britain, the British Government then taking over many of the British Icon Businesses, the Academic Idealistic British Managers (no real World Business Management experience) driving the British Icon Businesses into Bankruptcy, then selling the British Icon Businesses to Foreign Nations, increasing the British Unemployment, and leaving the British "Middle Class" and "Poor" to pay for all the British Social Programs, resulting in the current British Austerity Programs. British Labor Union Party demanding no British Automation. example: British Icon Business, Jaguar, sold to Tata Motors of India., 7. To become "Economically Viable" as stated by GM, Ford (previous loans), Chrysler during Congressional Testimony, GM, Chrysler stated the closure of US (and Canada) Plants and Factories, building Fully Automated Plants and Factories at (Toluca) Mexico and (Machau, Shanghai) China to escape the US Labor Intensive costs. This would also increase the "Quality" while decreasing the costs (US Labor Intensive versus 24/7/365 Fully Automated), think about someone with a magnifying glass, hammer, chisle, and file making something versus a CNC Machine. Proof: Go to the GM, Ford, Chrysler Dealership Parts Departments and read the Made In Labels. 8. President Obama is currently destroying the Only "Must Buy Only US Products, Goods, and Services" by US Law (US Code), that is currently keeping the US Manufacturing, US Raw Materials, US Farming and US Food Processing, US Textiles, etc. in Business at the US, as previously created by President FDR to get the US out of the Great Depression, 1939, after his New Deal To the American People Failed (US Government spending money did not have to create Jobs).
This will inevitably change the whole economic picture over night. we have been urging to close the window that the Fed has in euro debt. they haven't done so. If they don't US banks willface massive rists and have to cubarrowing at home to meet obligations abroad. this is an exact replay of 2008 all over agian..
Close the window now. Or america will pay a steep prioce in the yeaR Aeand.
Just a minute, it was these same greasy slimy bankers who treated themselve to bonuses for their wisdom in buying these European government bonds in the first place. So let's get these fumb duckers to repay their unearned bonuses, resign their country club memberships, give up their mistresses, return their leased automobiles , and HEAD STRAIGHT TO JAIL.
Because making dumb financial decisions is not illegal. And the U.S. is, for the moment, still governed by the rule of law. ... for the most part. :)
You mean the laws they paid to create?
Has the network news (aka Obabamedia) reported yet that Obama's showcase green company (Solyndra) that he funneled 500 million dollars to and which went bankrupt is now ready to pay bonuses to its executives? It has been reported by Fox days ago but I am not sure that the network moguls are allowing their people to report it. Seems they don't allow any of their "journalists" to say anything that might reflect negatively on Obama.
HUH? Ya mean the fat cats pay to create? And btw corporations/big business's are people too! Mitt and the GOP /TP, Supreme Courts told us so!
Watermoon, do not trust anything reported by Fox news. Fox news is fake news, just right-wing nonsense propaganda.
No -- Fox news merely reports what the Left and Obama's media whores do not.
We can depend on the rest to tell it right,eh?MSNBC would never twist the truth!?!?Whatever.
That's why I watch CNN lol Msnbc Far Left FOX FAR right CNN in the middle. I sometimes check out both MSNBC and FOX then make my own opinion. Because both are full of it. Just like the politicians and lobbyists they support. At least CNN will have an argument between the parties every now and then.
I liken it to only listening to Rap Music. Or only listening to country. Why would anyone have such a narrow view? I like all music. But not every song. Greece will fall, China will take over, and well all be speaking Mandarin soon. Dam and we complained about Spanish.
Were Fuaxed Now
Check the President and down to the Ceo's banking account..I am sure there billions in there.But hey,life will still go on with or with out cash.People better learn to farm..I will give 3 chickens and 1 pig for a horse!
The beginning of the end folks. Trade deficit continues to widen, does anyone know where the bottom is?
Well this is what happens when you spend too much money on programs that you can not afford. The same will happen here unless we cut spending, pass a balanced budget and pay down our debt. But instead this current Admin will ask to raise the borrow limit and then ask China for money money (on loan) because he can't imagine a Country where liberty is valued more than government...
That right. Cut until you've eviscerated the government - all government, all levels. Deregulate everything. Cut municipal spending getting rid of public service, police, teachers. Insure the continued wealth of the wealthy and a return to the dark ages for everyone else. And generally turn us into a feudal 15th century theocracy.
Rich ... I would like to ask you, and everyone else who advocates a "balanced budget", these questions: 1) did you pay cash for your home, or did you take out a mortgage? Did you buy your car for cash, or did you use financing? If you borrowed money for a house or a car, then you didn't have a balanced budget (at least the way "balanced" is defined in governmental accounting), yet you call on the government have one. That's being hypocritical, in my book.
Barry, a balanced budget is one where you are able to make regular payments on your debts. It's pretty basic stuff. Our government cannot even do it while they print more and more money (A luxury that us poor tax payers do not have)
In anwer to your questions, and I expect this out of our government:
1) I did not buy a house until I saved 20% for a down payment (thus avoiding Private mortgage insurance), and I bought a house that I had enough to pay 20% down. It is a small house, but it is in a good neighborhood and it is home. When my wages went up and the interest rate went down, I refinanced to a 15 year mortgage. When the housing bubble hit, I did not listen to people telling me that I should buy up because I saw the bubble. My home may not be much, but it is still worth more than I paid for it, but probably exactly what I put into it.
2) While I can see people needing to finance their cars, I did not. I paid cash for it when it was new. Of course, I am driving a 2004 Kia Rio! It has been on some road trips and camping trips. It is not a good car for touring, but I work less than 10 miles from home and it is fine for that.
A true Paul supporter Rich
Sorry you don't understand it was the 1% and their supporters that started building the house of cards in Europe. Lots of none payment of TAXES by the rich. Sellout to join euro-zone cost Greece 40% of it worth in 1 day. I know that to understand all that is going requires more than most People in this country are willing or unable to accept.
Rich
And the GOP wants to give More Hand outs to The top!! Go figure.
PJ Bully for U!
pj ... under the accounting rules that the US government follows (they dont use GAAP), all spending counts as an expenditure. You don't consider yourself out of balance even though that house cost more than your annual income. In fact, you may not consider that "spending". The government, on the other hand, has to consider everything as "spending" (it doesn't get to amortize an aircraft carrier, the way a private company would depreciate a capital investment). So, if you want a balanced government budget, then you don't want the government to borrow money, even in an economic downturn. Cutting spending during a recession just makes the recession worse.
I might be willing to agree to a balanced budget IF the government worked under the same accounting principles as the private sector and if it was suspended during periods of recession.
I too was going to mention the spelling. Um...welcome to the club, France!!
Isn't this the model that we are trying to adopt? Hmm, seems dangerous but the ignorant will keep voting for the solcialist in chief
Yes, it is time to get all people to pay taxes, instead of the rich hiding money on the Islands and Switzerland and vertually all business transactions, one of the reasons they like to get things from China and other places, so no one can find out what they actually pay for items or rather do not pay for things, tax income would double both in USA and EU, if that got stopped!.
There are 50 % of the people in this country that pay no taxes at all. They need to pay. Start taxing their entitlements and their welfare
Everybody pays sales tax, gasoline tax, property tax(even renters) fishing licenses, car registration, FCC tax on the phone, 911 fee, ECT.. 50% don't pay income tax but most of them will pay more taxes as a percent of income then the wealthiest 1%
Richard you are confusing income with wealth. It IS possible to have accumulated wealth in the past (Bill Gates) and have little or no income now. Similarly it is the poor who finally get a break and boost in income who are bent over the Dem taxes and beaten back down...
We have way more taxes than we should and way way way more entitlements to pay for.
Corporations are another matter and most Dems cannot tell the difference between GE who does not pay US tax and an individual. Legally they are like people but are far more flexible financially.
What is needed to bring lost jobs home are very high import taxes on the cost of goods manufactured overseas and sold here. At least sufficient to negate the savings of cheap international labor.
Richard, that's why I prefer the terms tax-consumer and tax-victim. You can likely guess that historically I've been a tax-victim. Guys, we're running out of other people's money (OPM).
Richard-Problem is gas tax goes to repair roads, property tax to public schools, fishing license tax to game and fish, car registration tax to new roads and maintenance, phone tax goes to the FCC etc...none of it goes to pay for entitlements and welfare...that's where federal income tax comes in. 50% don't pay federal income tax.
because almost 50% don't make enough to be considered wealthy enough to be able to afford taxes. And how about people spouting off that 47% figure actually mention how many are students and how many are retirees.
Or how about these people always mentioning the 47% also cite the statistics about how many small business owners under-report their income for tax purposes.
Bottom line is quit worrying about what someone else is or isn't doing.
As for some of your other arguments, BS to most of them. I guarantee your property tax doesn't cover 100% of the cost of education wherever you live. The federal government most definitely makes up a good portion of it. Gas tax nowhere near covers the expense of building/rebuilding roads.
Voter-I didn't say they cover the cost...I said that's where they go...there are state tax and federal tax on fuel...state pays for state roads...feds pay for interstate roads. you're actually making my point that Richard thinks these taxes go to pay for entitlements and welfare...they don't.
I have a monthly retirement check (entitlement) for my 22 years of service in the USAF. It is taxed as income by both the federal and state governments, trust me.
There are plenty of 0 tax paying people and people that get a windfall tax return out there. If i pay in 2k and i only make 35k and I scrape together every loop hole and deduction I can find, my return will equal close to 7k. That is 5k of windfall return, plus my be wife does not report we are married and gets welfare, food stamps, housing assistance, medicare, free cell phone etc... All the assistance basically doubles salary to 80k and I don't have to do anything to get it, I can stay on the dole play my Xbox drive my new truck and live comfortably. Thanks all you hard working tax payers out there for making it so easy. :)
Richard isn't confusing anything. As he points out, virtually everyone pays taxes. True, not everyone pays income taxes but that's because they make too little. How much do you want someone who makes $8.75 an hour to pay, anyway? I'm sure that they'd rather make more and pay some taxes. Of course, we could raise the minimum wage to a level where people would make enough to pay income taxes, but I doubt that you'd support that move.
50% pay no income taxes? Why because you have to have a positive income for it to be considered income! So this proves the fact we are so under paid in this nation while others make $48,000.00 hour.
That is where you are wrong. Look at your paycheck. You know that line that says Fed MED/EE and Fed OASDI/EE? That is called social security and medicare.
Obammy,timmy tax cheat and company will have the U.S. just like greece if he gets four more years watch and see! bundygaurd the so called poor need also pay their fair share most of po folks around here have a lot better than this old goat!
What is a Liberal progressive? Liberal's believe in central banking, big oil, big business and no competition, paper money over the gold standard. Liberal progressives are republican and Democrats that believe in central banking and unregulated wall street markets!
Liberal believe documentation of corporations have human rights to own things (only humans can own something) Human being defined as one heart beat, blood flow/pressure, one brain one skeleton... not a collective of minds. Liberal Progressives trump the constitution!
Huh? Your rambling, incoherent post just proves that conservatives and Republicans in general are just confused, scared, people who have absolutely NO CLUE about anything. You're WAY out of your league...
Say, here's a tip. There's a thing called "spell checker." It will change "manwhile" to "meanwhile" and "teh" to "the."
You're welcome.
Spell checkers are nice but it also may like now and not.
Imagine telling you boss you will do his bidding NOT when you meant now?
Maybe Dec. 2012 just marks the collapse of the global economy instead of the end of the world
Well that will be the end of the world as we know it!
Read ""This Time is Different",Reinhart (Princeton) and Rogoff (Harvard), (2009). They compiled the record of national debt defaults. A startling number; e.g., Greece has defaulted 5 times since independence and has been in "default" 50% of the time. And, leaving aside the Nordic, Northern European, and British founded nations, Greece is one of the better ones. (p. 287). Their point is that "crisis" such as this are routine and will pass in about three years (but will recur in the future). Hang in there.
Yet S and P and their fellow ratings agencies were the same people who gave AAA ratings to the CDO's the investment banks put together. You know, the types of instruments that sank the world's economy. So why are they credible in any way?
Yup. I toiled as a lowly computer programmer for many years when I could have been making millions rating anything with a pulse as AAA.
So I'm wondering who gets the blame when this impacts the US and it's slow recovery? We already had our downgrade due to politicians playing politics. Which politician will be the first to blame the other party now that other nations are getting downgraded? Now we will see who truly cares about helping the US recover and who just wants to play the blame game and more politics as usual. It is after all, an election year.
I'm sure Bush did it again.
obamalamadingdong will say "It's not my fault...I was organizing organizers at the time."
Not moochelle....she was to busy snatching big macs from the mouths of babes.
Harry says..."not me....I was too busy plotting Nancy's escape from the looney bin".
Barney said...."chumm humm dummfumm". (Translation: Hang on a minute until I get this
dingythingy out of my mouth)Al Gore said..."If y'all would've given me all yur money, the polar bears wouldn't of slipped in the Greece and caused the mess".
jpeg, YES BUSH DID IT!!!!! You have to admit it first before giving him a pass! You act as if he was blameless for the crisis we are in. That is where you lose credibility with thinking people.
As the Global World turns---UP----DOWN----UP-----DOWN
It is interesting that John Edward's heart problems receive thousands of postings while something real and important like a possible Euro zone collapse receives four. The Euro zone bad boys' free ride is coming to an end soon. Deficit spending without end or a plan will not continue. I don't think that it will have anything beyond a momentary adverse effect here. But here, we have our own catatrophe brewing. Neither Demos nor Repubs will stop spending. When the Bush tax cuts expire at the end of this year, that will provide more tax revenue but what will be done to reduce spending. Obama has done nothing. Will Romney do more. probabaly not but stay tuned and hope. Otherwise, we could be in for a major market collapse here. In the middle of last year, Obama was presented with the bipartisan Simpson-Bowles Plan to reduce spending. He swept it under the rug. He was not interested in anything except campaigining for re-election. He is a truly evil man but whether Romney will do any better is an open question and I am sceptical.
Ahhh.. the interconnected tangle of govts., sovereign debt, and international banks..
The current system is a horrific charade, that does nothing to grow economies, or improve the economic viability of any associated society..
And Obama wants to raise our National Debt limit by 1.2 Trillion. ABO - Anybody but Obama in 2012.
The USA was downgraded by S&P
http://tinyurl.com/44xrv4f
The reason ..
Compared with previous projections, our revised base case scenario now
assumes that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, due to expire by the end of 2012,
remain in place. We have changed our assumption on this because the majority
of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise
revenues, a position we believe Congress reinforced by passing the act. Key
macroeconomic assumptions in the base case scenario include trend real GDP growth of 3% and consumer price inflation near 2% annually over the decade.
Dong, you left out the fact of little change in entitlements a key to long term fiscal sustainability
wlee lets FIX the TAX crap first. Give 5 years to get things fixed one problem at a time. Can you budget your house repairs over the next 20 years without Knowing what your income is. Then we can see about your entitlements after a cost effectiveness review.
OOOPPSS. then we would have nothing to fight about every day and WE would not have anything to do.
i SEE why you chose your name - did you even go to school
Simplton....obama screams bloody murder about the payroll tax cut, saying families cannot get by without it. And you suggest a HUGE tax increase on the middle class?? Can you please explain your logic?
Hey Dong, do you get a nickel every time you re-post that dribble?
AAA to AA+ is nothing, relax people.
Why is it that the same people who screamed bloody murder when Bush ran deficits of $300 billion - remember how our children were having their futures destroyed by that madman? - now tell us relax when Obama runs deficits of 1.4 trillion? Debt was just over 10 trillion when he took over and is now 16 trillion three years later.
Well, to be fair, you also have to ask why the people who claimed that "deficits don't matter" under Bush changed their tune when Obama was elected.
REALLY ????????????
AAA and AA plus are the same ??????? Are u just stupid or do you really belive what it is your saying ???
Perhaps we should STOP borrowing. There is a novel idea. Means cutting costs in a big way to live within our means as a country...
Wait we can't.
Unions won't allow this
Social Security recipients rely on China every day
Medicare recipients rely on China every day
Our military relies on China every day
What would we do without our enemies money?
Tic, Toc, Tic, Toc, - just a matter of when, not if, the collapse occurs here!
You reap what you sow America!
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
You right but as you can see here more people are worried about spelling. I wonder how this happened?
They are unemployed English teachers
If your profession is writing...should spell check be a tough button to click ????
WOW !
The USA was downgraded by S&P
http://tinyurl.com/44xrv4f
The reason ..
Compared with previous projections, our revised base case scenario now
assumes that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, due to expire by the end of 2012,
remain in place. We have changed our assumption on this because the majority
of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise
revenues, a position we believe Congress reinforced by passing the act. Key
macroeconomic assumptions in the base case scenario include trend real GDP growth of 3% and consumer price inflation near 2% annually over the decade.
Who the hell is Yuda!?
It's spelled "Yudad" and it's "Yumama's" husband.
Time to fix today's problems was decades ago. Google for "DEFLATIONARY CRASH" to understand why. Today's economic problems are not about what we are doing today. But they are about what we have already done. For many decades, FED made credit easy, America borrowed. Same in Europe. We have inflated the money supply, prices and salaries with borrowed money. Debt has reached excessive levels with FED's leadership. FDIC guaranteed deposits and depositors never questioned bank actions. Fannie, Freddie guaranteed mortgages, banks gave mortgage to every breathing soul. The mistakes are already made. The cause is in place. The effect will follow.
Yuda thought he would tell the whole story, you know where the S&P also mentioned the problem with entitlements and the need to cut
The cure for deflationary crash is inflationary printing :-)
Given a choice I would prefer inflationary printing, but then I am an earner not a Social Security recipient.
Dong, do us a favor and think of something original.
Inflationary printing cannot fix deflation for credit dependent sectors such as housing. Google for CREDIT INFLATION to understand why. If Bernanke prints too much, nobody will lend long term for 30 years because they will be afraid of more printing. Thus they will be asking high interest for short term. Thus high prices can not longer be affordable causing prices to come down. Yes, you heard it right, printing will devalue the value of existing money supply causing deflationary effects. Printing only changes who pays for the mess. Savers pay instead of borrowers. But in a global economy it does not matter who pays. The value of debt will be deducted from the money supply and that will be enough to cause a depression.
Why are we still paying attention to what these S&P pukes put out? After the absolute BS ratings they assigned securities during they mortgage debacle, who gives a flying <something> what they think, and why are they still being used as a benchmark?
YOU don't have to care. But governments DO. Because the ratings strongly influence how much interest they pay on the debt they issue (to pay for the stuff they can't afford).