Wall Street surges on euro debt optimism

Brendan Mcdermid / Reuters

A trader works on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange.

By msnbc.com news services

U.S. stocks moved sharply higher Monday on hopes that Europe's leaders will agree on a plan to restore long-term confidence in the euro.

The Dow Jones industrial average was up over 150 points in the first few minutes of trading.

A crucial week for the future of the euro kicks off Monday with a meeting of German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy in Paris. The two are expected to discuss how to achieve closer political and economic union of the 17 euro countries, including stricter budgetary oversight.

Merkel wants to change the basic European Union treaty to reflect the tougher rules on euro countries and make them enforceable, while Sarkozy is resisting giving up more powers to Brussels, especially since he faces a tough re-election campaign in April. Sarkozy is thought to prefer an intergovernmental deal between the 17 euro countries.

The markets are hopeful that, given the gravity of the situation afflicting the eurozone, the two leaders will come up with a common proposal for tighter integration on budget matters. Analysts say that such a plan could lead to further emergency aid from the European Central Bank, possibly through the International Monetary Fund.

In Europe, the FTSE 100 index of leading British shares was up 0.5 percent at 5,582 while Germany's DAX rose 0.9 percent to 6,133. The CAC-40 in France was 1.5 percent higher at 3,213.

The biggest gainer was Italy's FTSE MIB, which was trading 3.1 percent higher, a day after the government led by Premier Mario Monti agreed big austerity and growth-boosting measures.

Significantly, the pressure on Italy eased in bond markets. The country's ten-year bond yield was down 0.40 of a percentage point to 6.16 percent.

Italy is the eurozone's third-largest economy and is considered too big to be bailed out. Its borrowing rates have in recent weeks hovered around the 7 percent mark, a level that eventually forced Greece, Ireland and Portugal to seek financial help. By comparison, bond yields in Germany, Europe's largest and most stable economy, are roughly 2 percent.

In economic news, the pace of growth in the vast U.S. services sector slowed in November to the slowest since January 2010, according to an industry report released on Monday. A separate report showed new orders for U.S. factory goods fell in October for the second straight month, suggesting a possible softening in the manufacturing sector, which has supported the economic recovery.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

Discuss this post

European model unsustainable

How do fiscally responsible countries like Germany control reckless spending and borrowing by socialist countries like Greece?

  • 2 votes
Reply#1 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 9:59 AM EST

It doesn’t matter what they decide on how to fix the situation, the fact is that nations and individuals have over extended their resources. They might be able to marginally slow down the downward slide, but it cannot be stopped. So gamers will take their profits on the uptick of the market.

  • 3 votes
#1.1 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 10:35 AM EST

Great news, the Federal Reserve, European Central bank, Bank of England, Warbourg, Deutch Bank, are now flooding Europe with newly printed dollars and Wall Strret jumps for joy. please someone explain this insanity, I don't.

  • 2 votes
#1.2 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 11:02 AM EST

it looks like a quicker way to end the dollar, loading unserviceable debt on it ! from all i have read ,this is the goal.

  • 1 vote
#1.3 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 11:22 AM EST

Yea, give banks more free money so they can buy government debt...what a joke. I can't believe that the servant class haven't yet burned down the super banks and harvard business school as well.

Banks can leverage loans via fractional reserve banking. So, in theory they can get one billion from the federal reserve for free then turn around and loan out 10 billion. So, they don't make 3% interest they make 30%. Its insane. And who pays the interest? Taxpayers of course.

The US treasure should just spend the money into existence directly on infrastructure. Whats the difference between the federal reserve printing it or the treasury? Cut out the welfare billionaire banksters and get the money to the people where its needed.

Money does NOT have to be issued as debt. The US treasure has the right to issue currency and spend it DIRECTLY into existence. The infrastructure will back up the spending. Hoover Dam, tennessee valley project, freeway system, etc. MONEY DOES NOT NEED TO BE BORROWED DURING HIGH UNEMPLOYMENT.

Spend it directly into existence. DO it now. A trillion on high speed rail network wold be a start. Or, a slow speed rail system if you prefer your rail slow.

    #1.4 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 12:35 PM EST
    Reply

    What part of, bailing out, increasing debt, delaying creating a fiscally responsible plan, solves nothing (the same logic applies here in the US)!

    Kicking the fiscal responsibility can "down the road", only delays the inevitable collapse. The day traders are having fun, when in reality, "mainstream" can not earn enough to sustain their standard of living.

    A financial collapse is inevitable!

    • 5 votes
    Reply#2 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 10:27 AM EST

    Mike , inevitable ? we are there, the voters just haven't caught on yet. Have a nice day. lmao

      #2.1 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 10:36 AM EST
      Reply

      The market and Wall Street are bracing for a bad crash tomorrow following announcement from Hersey Chocolate's that they will discontinue the lil aluminum wrapped kisses.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#3 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 10:33 AM EST

      The news from Wall Street sounds like a ride on a morons roller coaster.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#4 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 10:34 AM EST

      lol. The roller coaster at the Washington, DC circus.

      • 2 votes
      #4.1 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 11:20 AM EST
      Reply

      Let me start with a basic analogy for what I’m about to present. Anyone studying human behavior can tell you about “Normality Bias”. This is a term used when trying explain why and how we as human beings can endure seemingly brutal or obviously very intolerable situations (from an outside point of view). For instance we look at people living with degenerative diseases, or abusive environments, or extreme poverty and say “Wow, how do they endure? How do they cope?”. Well, they can do this because this is what is normal for them and they learn to cope (Normality Bias). Do you think these same people would be as adaptable if their situations where thrust on them overnight? Eventually, yes. Because after some time it becomes “normal”.

      I’m sure you’re wondering what this has to do with price of tea in China. Give me a few minutes more and I’ll explain.

      There is another, more alarming fact that describes where I’m going. It’s a fact that if you take a live frog and drop it in boiling water it will do everything it can to jump out. If you take the same frog and put it in cold water then gradually heat it up to a boil the frog will sit in the water until it boils to death.

      I know! I was thinking the same thing, who the heck is torturing these poor frogs?! But I digress. Though none of us would idly sit in boiling water this is also a good, though extreme example of “Normality Bias” in nature. Another way to look at it is this… Three years ago I was paying $0.87 a pound for hamburger. Today I’m paying nearly $3.00. Now if this price change had happened overnight I would have known there was trouble in River City and would have started stockpiling food, but since it happened over the course 3 years the most I do is shake my head, buy less hamburger, and look for cheaper meats.

      I bring up Normality Bias because it perfectly describes the economic pot of water we are all boiling in. I know, I know, here comes another alarmist. But honestly, stop and think where the world was and how your life was on Dec 31st 2007. Then imagine that instead of it becoming year 2008 the next day you are dropped into today.

      I was going to include all kinds of online links from all kinds of experts that will tell you and are telling us that our economic way of life is about to end. While I have included a couple of these I’ve decided not to waste my time (or yours) with that. The truth of the matter is that none of the data is completely accurate. Not the data from the government, or anything brought forward by the media and their “experts” tells the real story. The government won’t give you the real facts because they don’t want lose control of “how” the collapse will happen. The media doesn’t present all the facts for two reasons. First, they don’t have all the facts, and the facts that they do manage to get are buried.

      I won’t bother explaining why the press would bury information. There are plenty of conspiracy theories as to who is behind it, and for us it doesn’t really matter. All I know is that I’ve seen it firsthand.

      This first article I’m sure most of you saw last week or at least heard about it.

      By Patrick Rizzo

      The Federal Reserve said Wednesday that it joined some of the world's major central banks in a coordinated action to inject liquidity into the global financial system as the euro zone's financial crisis threatens to squeeze credit worldwide.

      Joining in the move were: the Fed, The Bank of Canada, the Bank of England, the Bank of Japan and the European Central Bank, the Fed said.

      "The purpose of these actions is to ease strains in financial markets and thereby mitigate the effects of such strains on the supply of credit to households and businesses and so help foster economic activity," the Fed said in a statement.

      The central banks agreed to lower the pricing on current temporary U.S. liquidity swap arrangements by 50 basis points from Dec. 5. The move makes more dollars available to banks at a cheaper rate, thereby easing worries about the availablity of funds to banks.

      The news came as Europe struggles to contain a debt crisis that threatens to pinch global credit and choke off economic growth, possibly throwing the world economy into recession.

      Standard & Poor's downgraded the ratings on many of the world's major banks late Tuesday, including top U.S. banks, amid worries whether the banks can withstand another recession and a worsening situation in Europe where countries such as Greece and Italy teeter at the edge of defaulting on their debt.

      Even China's mighty economy is feeling the fallout. China's central bank cut the reserve requirement ratio -- the amount of cash banks are required to keep on hand -- for commercial lenders, in an attempt to shore up its economy.

      Financial markets welcomed the move. Stock futures in the U.S. pointed to a sharply higher opening. The Dow Jones industrial average appeared set to rally more than 200 points at the start of trading.

      "This is something that is very welcome. This will not solve all deep-based funding problems which are due to the sovereign debt crisis. But there is an issue with dollar liquidity, especially with foreign currency and this measure addresses that," RBS economist Silvio Peruzzo told Reuters.

      The only thing that you should ask yourself here is “why are they injecting trillions of dollars into the system”? They stated it was “to ease strains in financial markets and thereby mitigate the effects of such strains on the supply of credit to households and businesses and so help foster economic activity,"

      The truth is that they wouldn’t be doing it if everything was ok and they only thought we might be in trouble.

      This next article is one that was in red at the top of MSNBC page early in the morning last week, but within 15 minutes it was 4 articles down in the business section.

      Fed lent banks nearly $8 trillion during crisis, report shows

      While the nation's largest banks were publicly reassuring nervous investors of their stability during the height of the financial crisis, they were also quietly approaching the Federal Reserve, hat in hand. The total price tag: $7.77 trillion, many times the amount of the better-known TARP bailout.

      The magnitude of the government's assistance to struggling banks allowed them to grow even bigger and continue paying executives billions in compensation, a report in Bloomberg Markets January issue said Monday.

      A win in court against a group representing the banks and a FOIA request filed by Bloomberg LP revealed the extent of the central bank's largesse — as well as the $13 billion in profits banks earned from those bailouts. The so called "big six" — JPMorgan, Bank of America, Citigroup, Wells Fargo, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley — accounted for $4.8 billion of that total — nearly a quarter of their net income during that time.

      Those borrowed trillions were a deeply-buried secret. It appears that even high-ranking Fed officials didn't know about the scale of the handouts. According to Bloomberg, then-president of the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis Gary H. Stern “wasn’t aware of the magnitude,” and unnamed sources say that even top aides to Treasury Department head Henry Paulson were kept in the dark.

      The six biggest banks in the country received a total $160 billion in TARP funds, but as much as $460 billion from the Fed, raising the question as to how and why this nearly $8 trillion in loans, guarantees and limits remained under wraps for so long. According to the Fed, the massive scale of banks' borrowing — and the red ink that prompted it — had to be kept secret to avoid spooking investors and prompting a panic or bank runs that would have had even more devastating consequences on the shaken economy.

      The Fed defended its actions back then by contending that the biggest financial institutions in the country were too big to fail — a phrase that has become a bone of contention among lawmakers, some of whom argue that a "too big to fail" bank is one that's too big to exist.

      Ohio Senator Sherrod Brown sponsored a bill last year that would cap a bank's non-deposit liabilities at 2 percent of gross domestic product, and crack down on workarounds banks currently use to bypass a 1994 law that prohibits any one bank from holding more than 10 percent of all deposits in the country.

      Lastly I was going to include the current and forecasted GDP to Debt ratio openly provided by the government which shows our debt will be well over 106% of our GDP in 2012. Then I came across something even more interesting. Look for yourself.

      Debt To GDP Is Dumb

      Posted on June 25, 2011 by Paladin

      The National Debt To GDP Ratio
      You know how economists, politicians, and pundits argue about how our Debt to GDP ratio isn’t that high compared to other countries in trouble like Greece? They often try to make the case that one country is better off – or in less dire circumstances – than another because it has a lower Debt to GDP ratio, and therefore has a better chance of paying back it’s debt.

      Well, that’s a dumb argument! If you hear such an argument, allow your eyes to glaze over, because they’ve missed the point.

      A Dumb Argument
      The National Debt to GDP argument is dumb because a nation’s debt to GDP is not a measure of a government’s ability to pay back debt! The Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is merely the market value of all final goods and services produced within a country in a given period. National debt is money that is legally owed by contract – often in the form of sovereign bonds, like U.S. T-bills or British gilt.

      Many of the goods and services measured in GDP aren’t taxed at all. And of those goods and services that are taxed, not much of it can be taxed. Besides, every country has a different way of taxing what is produced – usually by taxing what is earned – so what that means is two countries that have the same Debt to GDP Ratio, don’t face the same challenges nor do they collect the same amount in taxes.

      Debt To Income Also Dumb
      Based on the above, you would think that a better way to think about a country’s ability to pay it’s debts would be something like national debt to government income ratio.

      But even that won’t work. Just as two workers who make the same amount of money may each support a different number of kids to support and choose to live a different lifestyle, every nation has expenses they have to pay. They have to make those expenses before they can consider using any possible surplus income to pay off their debt.

      So to really measure a government’s ability to pay back its debt, you have to think about what it can realistically set aside from income after other expenses to pay off debt and the interest that comes with debt. That’s a surplus government income to debt ratio.

      You Can’t Divide By Zero
      So our current Debt to GDP ratio is close to 100% ($14.4 trillion National Debt / $14.7 trillion GDP). But our Debt to Government Income ratio is something well north of 600% ($14.4 trillion National Debt / $2.1 trillion Government Income). And our Debt to Surplus Government Income ratio is… well, we have no surplus government income. So there is no such ratio for us because dividing by zero is mathematically impossible.

      Massive Problem
      Do you see a problem with that?

      Last year, the U.S. government earned $2.1 trillion in total revenue (including Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid), but it spent about $1.4 trillion over and above what was earned by borrowing. In the 2010 budget request:

      • $695 billion on Social Security (mandatory)
      • $743 billion on Medicare and Medicaid (mandatory)
      • $400 billion on interest on the National Debt (mandatory)
      • $571 billion in other mandatory programs

      If you’ve been counting, that’s $2.4 trillion in so far mandatory programs alone! More than the income generated. By the way, mandatory programs don’t even include what we spend on Defense, Homeland Security, veterans, criminal justice, etc. Just military spending alone is $664 billion (including over $171 billion for war in Iraq and Afghanistan).

      Hard Times Are Coming
      How much longer do you think investors will want to lend to a government that spends much, much more than it makes? How much longer do you think our Federal government can continue to spend so much money on everything? Major cuts in government spending are coming. Federal taxes will also be increasing. Hard times are coming whether we like it or not. Prepare yourself.

      While the author of this article really isn’t anyone important, you can’t argue with his conclusions. Oh, and one other expense he forgot to mention, foreign aid. I doubt anyone is willing to fork out that number.

      This last article is probably the most important one of all. This is from a group that a great many businesses and investors listen to.

      U.S. Economy Tipping into Recession

      Early last week, ECRI notified clients that the U.S. economy is indeed tipping into a new recession. And there’s nothing that policy makers can do to head it off.

      ECRI’s recession call isn’t based on just one or two leading indexes, but on dozens of specialized leading indexes, including the U.S. Long Leading Index, which was the first to turn down – before the Arab Spring and Japanese earthquake – to be followed by downturns in the Weekly Leading Index and other shorter-leading indexes. In fact, the most reliable forward-looking indicators are now collectively behaving as they did on the cusp of full-blown recessions, not “soft landings.”

      Last year, amid the double-dip hysteria, we definitively ruled out an imminent recession based on leading indexes that began to turn up before QE2 was announced. Today, the key is that cyclical weakness is spreading widely from economic indicator to indicator in a telltale recessionary fashion.

      Why should ECRI’s recession call be heeded? Perhaps because, as The Economist has noted, we’ve correctly called three recessions without any false alarms in-between. In contrast, most of those who’ve accurately predicted a recession or two have also been guilty of crying wolf – in 2010, 2005, 2003, 1998, 1995, or 1987.

      A new recession isn’t simply a statistical event. It’s a vicious cycle that, once started, must run its course. Under certain circumstances, a drop in sales, for instance, lowers production, which results in declining employment and income, which in turn weakens sales further, all the while spreading like wildfire from industry to industry, region to region, and indicator to indicator. That’s what a recession is all about.

      But how can we have a new recession just a couple of years after the last one officially ended? Isn’t this too short for an economic expansion?

      More than three years ago, before the Lehman debacle, we were already warning of a longstanding pattern of slowing growth: at least since the 1970s, the pace of U.S. growth – especially in GDP and jobs – has been stair-stepping down in successive economic expansions. We expected this pattern to persist in the new economic expansion after the recession ended, and it certainly did. We also pointed out – months before the recession ended – that because the “Great Moderation” of business cycles (from about 1985 to 2007) was now history, the resulting combination of higher cyclical volatility and lower trend growth would virtually dictate an era of more frequent recessions.

      So it comes as no surprise to us that, with the latest expansion only a couple of years old, we’re already facing a new recession. Actually, such short expansions are hardly unheard of. From 1799 to 1929, nearly 90% of U.S. expansions lasted three years or less, as did two of the three expansions between 1970 and 1981. In other words, such short expansions are unusual only with respect to recent decades.

      It’s important to understand that recession doesn’t mean a bad economy – we’ve had that for years now. It means an economy that keeps worsening, because it’s locked into a vicious cycle. It means that the jobless rate, already above 9%, will go much higher, and the federal budget deficit, already above a trillion dollars, will soar.

      Here’s what ECRI’s recession call really says: if you think this is a bad economy, you haven’t seen anything yet. And that has profound implications for both Main Street and Wall Street.

      Full Report: September 21, 2011: U.S. Cyclical Outlook

      Are you getting the picture now? The natural questions are, who’s to blame and what can we do to stop it. The answer to the first question is everyone. And the truth of the matter is no one significant will be held accountable.

      The answer to the second question is nothing. We’ve already fallen off a 2000ft cliff and are free falling at terminal velocity. Flapping you arms isn’t going to help. It will only look good right up to the moment we hit the ground and die.

      I’m also of the opinion that this will be much worse than the “Great Depression”. Not only economically but also for the fact that we are softer than we were in the early 1900’s. In the end I think we’ll be lucky if the U.S. dollar even exists.

      So, what do we do now? The only real steps any of us can take are plan the best way we can to protect ourselves and our families. Buy seeds for growing your own food, stock up on as much non perishables as you can, and learn how to can and dehydrate your own food. If you have money invested somewhere I would suggest buying silver. Silver is completely undervalued right now and once it reaches its normal price comparison to gold (1/16) you will have already missed the bus. Also, make sure you are prepared to protect what you have. There will be plenty of people that will try to take it from you.

      I know we all love hearing great news like this (not). I just felt compelled to make sure you are awake. Good luck to us all, we’re going to need it.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#5 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 10:37 AM EST

      Hard times are coming whether we like it or not. Prepare yourself.

      Thank you for expanding on my earlier comment!

        #5.1 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 11:06 AM EST

        My pleasure. But I think it was a little too long for people to take the time to read it.

          #5.2 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 1:17 PM EST

          Nice job! Thanks for the research. I think you would be surprised as to how many people will read your dissertation. It’s time we all get informed and contribute to spreading the reality and truth of our situation. While expedient commenter's will blame political parties and having to read too much, informed commenter’s are seeking an understanding so that they can contribute their energy to being part of the solution rather than part of the problem. Thanks again and keep up the good work!

          • 1 vote
          #5.3 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 1:59 PM EST
          Reply

          This story shows just what fools people are. The problem is credit and using it to dump money into a bad situation. This won't make it better; it will only make it worse. The debt continues to grow, while the ability to paid it back diminishes.

          The simple fact is that credit only has value when it can be paid back. Otherwise, it is nothing but worthless symbols on a ledger page.

          This story shows that value is trying to be created where no value exists, so its doomed to fail.

            Reply#6 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 10:49 AM EST

            Come on people you can't be that stupid. While our government is bailing out the banks with billions. the Federal Reserve is making 7.7 trillion in secret loans to those same banks at 0% interest, so those same banks can lend back this money to the government at 3%.

            Now were being told that the Federal Reserve is going to dump tons of money overseas to bailout the EURO. Well, our government ran out of money on August 1. Debt crises, remember. Its been borrowing to operate since then.

            Three years ago your families share of the national debt was about $45,000.00. As of August 1, 2011 it was $122,303.00 and growing.

            I'm not going to tell you to wake up. I'm going to tell you to learn how to add. Add one and one together and the only conclusion you can come to is that this country will be a 3rd world nation or won't exist in the near future as a result of bad debt.

            Its bad enough that our government is borrowing money to operate, but to borrow money to bailout the Euro is just insane.

            We don't have the private sector employment to support the debt this country is accumulating. With banks, insurance companies making plans to ship their customer service and computer operation jobs overseas, its not going to get any better.

            Its as simple as that. If this country is going to survive, we need to get people back working and reduce the National debt.

            With a congress that is debating if pizza is a snack food or a veggie and debating if they should lift the ban on human consumption of horse meat, rather than working on real solutions to this country's problems, our future is in jeopardy.

            • 4 votes
            Reply#7 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 11:21 AM EST

            I agree but I don't think they have any solution to this mess they've allowed! Just like the EU Central banks bailing out nations....with what? Money created out of thin air, that creates inflation for sure but there is a much greater danger to the whole planet. During the creation of the GFC the industry created CDO where they repackaged bad loans & on sold them as an investment vehicle for super or you call 401k's. Before selling the CDOs they paid a 3rd party to give these CDOs a AAA rating then it all collapsed after they spread these bad loans worldwide. Well thCB bailout is much worse it sees the taxpayers world wide being left with the bad debt for nations using money that doesn't exist! What will this do first as I said inflation will fly then the collapse will come because accounting 101 tells you that you cannot repay an interest on standing debt with more borrowed money! The collapse will make 2008 look like a picnic......the politicians have no answer we are sheep being taken to the slaughter!

            Go ahead ask your bank for a loan (big loan) to repay your mortgage interest.....see what they tell you! Yet Wall St is chucking a party.

            • 1 vote
            #7.1 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 1:17 PM EST

            You are absolutely right Nick! Money out of thin air and when you attach interest you are perpetually in debt. The sad thing is that we don't even control our own money supply. Remember the Federal Reserve is neither Federal nor a reserve, they are a group of mostly foreign European bankers. Until we take control of our money supply we will continue to be economic slaves to the banksters.

            • 1 vote
            #7.2 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 2:07 PM EST
            Reply

            Three years ago your families share of the national debt was about $45,000.00. As of August 1, 2011 it was $122,303.00 and growing.

            This is worth repeating not that the criminals in Washington will listen to reason

            Vote Tea Party Patriot 2012 and stop the insanity

            • 2 votes
            Reply#8 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 11:29 AM EST

            they want you to think that financially the whole world is in debt and falling apart! its not true, only country's run by the bank of england are! the goal take it all apart and rebuild to 1 currency 1 world system.

            • 1 vote
            Reply#9 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 11:45 AM EST

            Learn how to add people. No private sector employment + mounting debt = a 3rd world nation or worse, no nation at all.

            Our government is trying to tell others to get their budgets in order, while our Government's budget is running amok. Oh I forgot, we don't have a budget to get in order.

            The tea party isn't the answer. They've allowed the Christian Taliban Movement to take them over. The solutions they represent aren't what this country stand for.

            Let us not forget that our country was founded by people who were escaping the Christian Taliban Governments they were living under.

            • 1 vote
            Reply#10 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 11:47 AM EST

            Market was around 7400 in 2008, today in 2011 around 12100

            I guess the end is near, I guess time to pullout due to the big crash in Jan 2012.

              Reply#11 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 12:07 PM EST

              You can just stop reading this article with the first phrase: "U.S. stocks moved sharply higher Monday on hopes".

              • 1 vote
              Reply#12 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 12:31 PM EST

              Now that Obama has sent Tim Geithner to teach the Europeans how to get their spending under control everything should be good.

                Reply#13 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 12:45 PM EST

                Optimism?

                Optimism over "hopes that Europe's leaders will agree on a plan to restore long-term confidence in the euro"... ?

                Has anyone actually READ that headline?

                The KEY words there are "hopes" and "will agree on a plan".

                Absolutely NOTHING in the headline that even suggests a "REAL SOLUTION", no, not even close...

                In other words, our "Wall Street stock market is GAMBLING on "hopes" and a "possible plan"?

                If that is the "empty reasoning behind a Wall Street surge" it only underscores how DESPERATE Wall Street is for even some 'remote glimmer of hope".

                Brilliant! Yet, how many Americans STILL do not grasp the magnitude of the Global Financial Depression we are in?

                With all the talk about finances, what is not discussed is a comparison between "how many billions EACH country INVESTS in its own military?" Just that one single topic shines a big light on just how SCREWED UP Europe truly is and WHY the "core reason" is definitely excessive Socialist spending... like Obama has been doing in the USA, and we continue to see the FAILURE of such absurd thinking.

                By simply looking at ONE area of spending: Consider the 25% or higher percentage the USA spends on its EXCESSIVELY OVERBLOWN GLOBAL POLICE FORCE out of each years Federal Budget.

                Then consider HOW LITTLE EACH EUROPEAN country spends on its own military... which ends up being a MINOR FRACTION of their budgets... literally ending up in LOW SINGLE DIGITS.

                WHY?

                The USA has been protecting Europe since 1945, particularly with NATO plus the tens of billions we spend on the United Nations, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund.

                The POINT IS?

                Europe is STILL COMPLETELY BROKE because they've BURNED AWAY ALL THEIR MONEY on ineffective SOCIALIST WELFARE PROGRAMS since 1945.

                How have SIXTY FIVE YEARS of SOCIALIST PROGRAMS worked out ?

                They have accomplished what?

                NOTHING beyond excessive poverty... loss of manufacturing jobs... and ridiculously high unemployment where 15% to 20% to 25% Unemployment has been the NORM for decades?

                Is that the result of SOCIALIST programs?

                It never ceases to amaze me how unbelievably misinformed and/or uneducated the average American is when it comes to Global Economics.

                One does not need a Business School PhD. to understand these things, but people do need to know how to READ and how to do BASIC MATH at the Elementary School level.

                Yet, today we have a pathetic excuse for a President... and a solid group of BRAIN-DEAD Politicians, Media sluts and truly ignorant people that somehow continue to buy in to this "Karl Marx spread the wealth around" and "Robin Hood's steal from the rich to help the poor" philosophies?

                How many Americans are SO IGNORANT that they are DUMB ENOUGH to actually believe "We MUST SPEND our way OUT of DEBT?"

                Yet, WHO are the one's who PAY the TAXES; FUND the government; FUND the charities; FUND the universities and colleges; FUND the Arts; FUND the hospitals; FUND the libraries; BUILD the buildings and CREATE the JOBS, especially in the USA? It always is THE WEALTHIEST Americans...

                NO poor person EVER gave anyone a job.

                Today, we see people 'buying in to this ATTACK the Rich guys" ignorance...

                If we PROTEST AGAINST ANYONE... it is ALL THOSE PARASITIC SCUM in the U.S. Congress who specialize in DEFLECTING BLAME toward anybody and anything but themselves. Democrat Socialists and RINO Republicans spending America in to oblivion.

                  Reply#14 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 12:58 PM EST

                  There is no good news about this debt or it's resolutionand for the stock market to be anything but pessimistic about it is Fool's gold.

                    Reply#15 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 1:00 PM EST

                    YAWN!

                      Reply#16 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 1:14 PM EST

                      The United States is in line to get our country foreclosed upon, just like what’s happening to the European countries. If you didn’t notice, the American and European banks just got bailed out again. The house of cards is collapsing. America is the largest debtor in the history of the world (15.1 trillion and counting).

                      I think most people have figured out that Wall Street is one of the most corrupt and ethically deprived institutions on our planet. I think most people also know the media is bought and sold just like most politicians. We also know that Wall Street is one of many tools of the elite but not the main tool. What is very clear is that our financial system has an architect and carefully designed plan that is playing itself out in Europe.

                      “Money” is derived from debt. The U.S requests Federal Reserve notes (debt) from the Federal Reserve (which is neither federal nor a reserve) by giving paper Treasury Bonds (debt) to the Federal Reserve in exchange. As a result, a concept is agreed upon, debt for debt, not anything tangible is agreed upon. Monopoly money is then authorized (created but not minted, that is done by Federal mints) by a consortium of mostly European banksters with the Rothschild’s at its head is also created out of thin air. Tack on Interest to that debt now owed to a foreign entity and you have a perfect storm for taking over and controlling economies and nations. The pool of debt money (exchange of Treasury Bonds for Federal Reserve notes) put in the system is now always there and can be replenished by borrowing more (exchanging more bonds for more notes) but the interest added to the debt is never put into the system and therefore can never be paid back. If there were no debts owed in our money system (money put in to the system and then paid back) there wouldn’t be any “money”, but because there is interest attached we will always have a negative balance by always having to borrow to pay the interest that is attached to every dollar borrowed. The interest is exponential and we can never break even again with the Federal Reserve and will always be in debt to them. “Money” isn’t designed to represent the value of the goods and services in any economy, it is merely used as an exchange for the goods and services, it is designed to put you into debt. The concept of interest owed and attached to loans will always exceed the money in circulation. So the big pool of money owed is bigger than the pool we as laborers actually have to draw on to pay our bills. It’s like musical chairs we are always competing for the small pool of money and there have to be winners and losers in this system. That’s why inflation is a constant and new money is always needed to cover the interest. Interest (usury) is the bullet in the Federal Reserve’s weapon of mass destruction. Without a country controlling and managing their own currency they are then relegated to economic slavery. I will try and explain as I go along, please pardon the redundancies.

                      The dominoes are beginning to fall in what is an orchestrated attempt by the banksters (Federal Reserve and its subsidiaries) to consolidate Europe and eventually the rest of the world’s economies under one umbrella that is to be controlled by those that have always controlled currency and money. The most egregious aspect of this contrived extortion is that they are blaming the people who are the backbone of any economy instead of their greedy corrupt political and business leaders.

                      George Papandreou was pressured to quit because he lapsed into a morally and ethical responsible position by trying to give the people of Greece a say in their economic future through a referendum. This vote would have given the Greek people the choice to stay in the Euro zone and allow their country to be foreclosed upon by the banksters or leave the Euro regain their sovereignty and coin their own currency once again. The IMF bullied the smallest country as a litmus test for what is going to be a much more challenging foreclosure process when it comes to the larger economies. Italy is now in the cross hairs. This dilemma you are watching unfold goes to the core of the rotten apple that is the world’s financial system.

                      Folks, you are witnessing the death throes of a corrupt financial system where the stock markets and the fractional reserve banking system are at its core. In the United States, It doesn’t matter who’s in office. Our political system has turned into a two headed one party system with both parties serving their masters, Wall Street and the banksters/Federal Reserve. The stock market is just another ponzi scheme whose intent is to fleece the gullible at the bottom of the pyramid. The stock market is a rogue element of a financial system that is meant to funnel the wealth to the elite/banksters who soicopathically control our financial lives. The stock market isn’t the main problem; it’s the fractional reserve banking system that has set the foundation for outright theft. We are experiencing the biggest bank and investment robbery in history and the banks and financial institutions are doing the robbing. When you blame one political party or another they have you right where they want you, in fear, divided and distracted to the theft that is going on right in front of your eyes each and every second of the day.

                      When you have people on Wall Street day trading and speculating making half a million dollars a year in their twenties betting on people being foreclosed on, you need to ask yourself what is the true purpose of our banking system?. MF Global CEO, ex Goldman Sachs CEO Jim Corzine knows this and knows that nobody with his connections have served any time for stealing the investor’s money (1.2 billion at last count). The financial system’s main mission should be to allocate capital to areas of greatest growth in the real world economy. Yet they allow all kinds of broker speculation and financial gimmicks such as the derivative markets which are based on non-realistic side bets which are now in the quadrillions. The derivatives market was illegal for most of the 20th century.

                      The European banking crisis is a prime example of what is going to happen to all economies associated with stock market fraud and the Federal Reserve banking system. The financial strife in Greece is the model that will befall most countries. Greece is but a symptom of a cancer that has attached itself to the world’s economies. The Federal Reserve (which is neither federal nor a reserve) has been creating money (monopoly money) out of thin air and charging interest on it insuring a debtor economy for anyone who chooses or is forced to get involved with the Federal Reserve and their fractional reserve banking system. That is why this whole European or any countries current debt crisis will never be resolved and will be preyed upon by the stock market vultures. The Federal Reserve System is designed to cause economies to fail.

                      If someone loans you two dollars to run your economy and expects three back for the loan and interest how are you going to pay the third back? You can’t unless you borrow more dollars which puts you in perpetual debt and in a constant borrowing cycle to pay off the debt. This is designed not accidental.

                      Here’s the kicker, once the Federal Reserve/banksters have you struggling to pay off your interest, they send in their loan sharks the International Monetary Fund (IMF). The IMF will loan you money to cover your ever burdening interest payments but they attach a provision that if you default, you will have to give them your assets in what they call privatization (foreclosure).

                      Banks, Central banks, World Bank, IMF = Federal Reserve = Debtor economies (slaves, economic slaves).

                      • 1 vote
                      Reply#17 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 2:09 PM EST

                      i say make the all medical insurance government ,giving some of the money back to the people ,and using some of it to pay out bebt .Use the illegal immigrants to help pay for homeland sucurity by allowing them to work ,making them give up there rights to collect tax refunds and making them pay fees for being here till they become citizens ,also alowing them to pay for there own medical insurance .

                      • 1 vote
                      Reply#18 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 4:52 PM EST
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