Grrrrrrrrr....just today it took me ten freaking minutes to open a 6 pack of D cell batteries. Yes . I'm to to you Rayovac. You either cut yourself with on the plastic or cut yourself with the utility knife trying to get through their bullet proof shell.

Death to clamshells and the evil morons that invented them.

it's an outrage that it's even considered for use. Totally and completely unnecassary and just causes complete anger and frustration when forced to try and open this crap.

any company that uses it, should be brought up on charges.

Don't just charge them, throw them in jail. Then, feed them their meals in clamshell packaging. Give them single sheets of TP, each in its own clamshell. If they misbehave, seal them up in a clamshell.

Well, the industry needs this packaging right? I mean isn't every package dropped from 30,000 feet down to their customers? I think they should add a parachute to every one which wraps itselfs around the package and heat shrinks itself upon landing.

If Walmart sold pepper spray, I bet it would be in a clamshell!

Am I the only one that's noticed that in the midst of all this "packaging rage" discussion, Amazon continues to send items in over large cardboard boxes filled with enough "air bags" (made of plastic) to stretch around my house? Instead of using boxes more appropriately sized, they waste huge amounts of paper and plastic.

Germany requires manufacturers to take back their packaging, because they're running out of room in their landfills. It's led to a huge decrease in waste. We should do the same. Does toothpaste really need to come in a box? Tennis/golf balls? Deodorant? Perfume? Liquor?

I agree, AG99, but...wouldn't the tennis and golf balls just roll around without the boxes? Sorry, had to ask.

My personal favorites are boxed packages with clamshells inside. But R. Scalzo below is right -- so much of this is to head off shoplifting.

Mykel Horn

Am I the only one that's noticed that in the midst of all this "packaging rage" discussion, Amazon continues to send items in over large cardboard boxes filled with enough "air bags" (made of plastic) to stretch around my house? Instead of using boxes more appropriately sized, they waste huge amounts of paper and plastic.

The larger boxes and extra padding prevents shipping damage. Order something from a rookie seller on eBay, and when you pour the broken pieces out of the box, you'll know why Amazon packs the way they do.

instead of worrying about the packaging, maybe they should be more concerned about the product inside the package. thats where most consumer rage kicks in, especially items bought from walmart.

How do you get out a pair of scissors that's in a clamshell?

If Walmart sold pepper spray, I bet it would be in a clamshell!

They do (or at least have), it is (or was).

Jokes aside, including the old story about a 1980's product sold at the 'home hell store' designed to open what we then called 'bubble packages' which was, itself, sold in such a package...there's a reason these things are used.

I have many years' experience in retail. I've seen first hand why things in these packages come this way.

Issue #1 is keeping the product salable. Customers are funny creatures. They're rough as open coat sandpaper on merchandise as they're pawing through it, but yet they only want to buy a product in new, perfect condition. If it's scratched, marred, stained, or otherwise soiled, nobody will buy it. Eventually it has to be disposed of, which is almost as bad as someone having stolen it as far as how it affects the store's bottom line at the end of the accounting cycle. The reason I say almost is that a surprising amount of product larger retailers carry can be and is returned or otherwise redeemed for credit (not always shipped back, it depends) if it has to get pitched. Guess who gets to eat some or all of it then? That's right, the manufacturer. It doesn't matter that the customer ultimately pays for it, it hurts the manufacturer long before the customer sees a price increase as a result. Hence, protective packaging to keep certain products from being damaged in any way until after they're sold.

Issue #2: Ensuring the integrity of the label. In this day of Uniform Product Codes and computerized cash registers, if a product is somehow separated from its barcode, it is often as good as lost. It can't be scanned, so no one is going to buy it. There's a way around this, but it's a lot labor on the part of someone in 'the back room' who has to figure out just what it is and print a new label for it. And even then, most customers will view it as distressed merchandise and leave it on the shelf unless its marked way down or else it's the last one left and they're desperate. Half the time, the replacement UPC that was printed out has again been lost or damaged to the point it can't be scanned at the Point Of Sale terminal (emphasis on again). Clear polystyrene and polyethylene packaging helps ensure the product inside can be rung up with no further ado at the register so someone can actually purchase the thing.

3. Security. You'll notice many things in these packages are fairly small in size or else have a number of parts or accessories that can easily be separated from the main product. That sealed bubble package is often large enough that it can't be easily slipped into a pocket, and that's on purpose. It's also meant to be difficult to open. Some people, if they've bought something and lost a part of it, won't have any problem going back to the store and just helping themselves to a replacement part from another new unit on the shelf, hurting the next person who unwittingly buys it without realizing something is missing. The bubble package does a pretty good job of making sure everything stays inside until it's bought and out of the store.

And, finally, safety. Some products are, or can be, sharp. Certain tools with cutting edges or light bulbs often come in clam shell packaging to keep people, especially children, from cutting or otherwise injuring themselves on a cutting edge or broken glass should there be any in the package, which is something you'll see nearly every day in a store of any size. In some other products, keeping it sealed prevents product contamination, accidental or intentional. It also makes it much more difficult for someone to open a bottle or container of something that could be very messy or possibly harmful if swallowed or spilled. If that's going to happen, the store would much prefer it happen somewhere else after the product has been purchased rather than on the sales floor.

There's a lot of stuff that doesn't come in plastic clamshell packaging. It can be because something else works better, like a tin can, or because the product is something that is not prone to spoilage or pilferage, or at least inexpensive and/or harmless enough to not matter much if it is ruined. Once upon a time, most of what you bought came from behind the counter of a general store or it came mail order from a catalog and shoppers couldn't easily wreck merchandise. If we ever go back to that, the bubble package will probably disappear shortly thereafter.

Last time I bought an SD memory card for my digital camera the packaging the card was in was easily 12 inches by 12 inches when the car itself is well under one inch square. The amount of wasted plastic in that packaging was completely absurd, not to mention the fact that I had to dig out a very sharp knife to get the package open. I tried with scissors but the plastic was so think it was hurting my fingers trying to cut through it with the scissors. The excuse the manufacturers give for making the packaging so big is to try and help retailers prevent theft of these small, higher value items. I think that is just an excuse and the real reason is to give them a larger area on the package to print their name in huge letters as advertising. I think they need to fine these manufacturers when the packaging is so grossly over-sized in regard to the actual product. This would help cut down on the amount of trash going into landfills as well as the reduce the amount of energy and petroleum products used in producing these plastics which is generating unnecessary, excess pollution to boot.

Keeping products with their barcodes is apparently an issue. Wal-Mart actually refused to sell me an ice cube tray because it had become separated from its barcode. It was the last ice cube tray that they had on the shelves, and despite the fact that I was able to find the price on the shelves, they would not allow me to purchase the ice cube tray.

I appreciate the TiGor's rigorous explanation of the benefits of bubble/clamshell packaging in a retail environment. This seems to mitigate against Wal-Mart's push for greener or rage-free packaging. But what about Amazon? Most if not all of the benefits of this kind of packaging seem to be directed specifically at the retail store situation. Do we need our bubble package to be further packaged in bubble wrap and cardboard before it makes it to our doorstep when we purchase online? Maybe products that benefit from bubble packaging when they are destined for an aisle-end display in a store could have alternative packaging when they are destined to be packaged again for shipping by Amazon.

That Clam shell was designed for anti-theft because people would just take the items out of the package and pull a Houdini, now you sit now you don't but it does suck and are very dangerous to open ...

Imagine if everything came in a clam shell: cars, refrigerators, girlfriends, clams ...

Just take all the clamshell packaging materials to Walmart and leave it on one of the aisles somewhere, so nobody will notice it among all the other junk that Walmart's neanderthal customers have already taken from the shelves and left in the aisles. Eventually Walmart will have so many tons of this plastic junk (as opposed to the plastic junk they charge money for) that they will have to send it back to its place of origin -- China...you know, the same place where all our jobs went.

I buy lots of stuff thats packaged in clamshells and tougher. My Metal cutters havent failed once in the 5 years I've had them. Weighs about 1 1/2 lbs. Got them at big lots.

I'm glad everyone has concluded that they hate these packages. But, along with that appears a total lack of understanding as to why things are packaged the way they are. There was a mention of theft protection, which is a small part of the equation. But, there are other more important reasons. Having worked in the "back room" of a store, I can tell you that without a lot of such packaging a lot of what is put out on the shelves would be broken. That means that a lot more customers would have to deal with returning "defective" products. Actually, I'm surprised that a lot more products sold aren't broken. But, the biggest reason for the packaging is the marketing. The fact is that attractive packaging is part of the game. I'm sure most consumers would deny this, but the manufacturers and retailers spend millions of dollars to determine the best way to market their products. That little memory card JS mentioned uses quite a bit of material. I'm sure that manufacturers would love to save on the costs of the extra material. But, if it was in a 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 package, it wouldn't be noticeable and the logistics of selling them in such a way that they wouldn't be pocketed wouldn't be easy to deal with. Just some thoughts on the matter.

Amazon's Kindle Fire came in a frustration proof package. Pull a zip line, open the box, pull out the unit. The adapter is not in a box, but a square of paper, easily disposed of, and the instructions are on recycled paper, about 2"x3", and a single sheet to plug it in and turn it on. All in all, the easiest electronics gadget packaging I've had to open in memory, and the easiest to get rid of the superfluous packing material. I kept the box, in case I need a return, but the rest of it could be wadded into a 2" x 2" square.

Now, if we could get the DVD/Bluray industry to follow along.

I wonder if the excessive packaging may also be some sort of marketing strategy. That is, just the act of tearing the entire packaging apart to get the product out, may make some people reluctant or uncomfortable returning it (assuming, of course, it's not defective). Some may psychologically feel it's no longer in the the same condition it was when purchased (can't be repackaged neatly and therefore not resellable) and, as a result, simply keep it anyway, even if it's not what they really want...just a thought.

"That little memory card JS mentioned uses quite a bit of material. I'm sure that manufacturers would love to save on the costs of the extra material. But, if it was in a 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 package, it wouldn't be noticeable and the logistics of selling them in such a way that they wouldn't be pocketed wouldn't be easy to deal with."

Yes the manufacturers should turn those into much smaller packages, but I must call BS... tiny little memory cards like that ARE one of the few items that should be 'behind the counter' but there's a few people without a clue who made sure they are not.

There's absolutely no way that using that much packaging for a little tiny memory card is justifiable.

The bigger picture, however, is this... MARKETING PEOPLE ARE DUMB. I've known many over the years and they are in general seriously stupid people. They can't outthink a pet in many cases. So the first thing that pops in their head is what they go with, versus actually finding the proper answer. Many claim to use statistics in their work, but I've discussed stats with many of them and they have no clue how stats work.

Keep in mind they are the people who made a policy at Best Buy and tells their blue shirts (no joke) that if the customer has the ad the blue shirts won't bug that person, however if you don't have the ad the blue shirts are supposed to approach (i.e. harass the living @!$%# out of) you whenever they see you. The complete OPPOSITE of any logical plan... all thanks to marketing folks - the same schmucks that promote all of this wasteful packaging "so it looks good". Really to any marketing people out there - when I go to buy a memory stick I pay attention for two things - brand, and dollars per gig - the packaging has ZERO ability to affect my choice one way or the other, unless it is such a big and cumbersome wasteful package - then in that case I may actually go with the less reputable brand if they were more environmentally friendly.

We are not in the 1960s... we cannot waste this much plastic "so it looks good" on the shelf. That's a form of vanity our world cannot afford.

Some items are not peg hook / open shelf candidates based on their value or potential shopliftability. Instead of having the blue shirts out harassing people browsing BluRay movies, put them behind the counter and provide some service. Wow that would require that they think before they act though.

"Chouse" has really nailed this issue. The issues that "TiGor" has mentioned could and should be resolved by having customer service reps (labor) at these stores instead of just cashiers and stockers. The most important thing packaging can have is an explanation of the product that a reasonably knowledgeable salesperson could provide more detailed. Some things just really require a live person to do- not a device!

Am I the only one that's noticed that in the midst of all this "packaging rage" discussion, Amazon continues to send items in over large cardboard boxes filled with enough "air bags" (made of plastic) to stretch around my house? Instead of using boxes more appropriately sized, they waste huge amounts of paper and plastic.

I do you one better. I order aquarium filter floss from Amazon from time to time when their price is lower than my usual supplier. If you aren't familiar with this stuff, it comes in a plastic bag and is similar to what we stuff pillows and comfortors with. Basically, it looks like a big plastic covered pillow. They ship this in a GIANT box...filled with bubble wrap and air bags. Really?? I crack up every time I open the box.

I don't see how clamshell packaging "heads off shoplifting". While it does prevent them from removing the item from the packaging, it doesn't necessarily prevent them from removing it from the store itself. And while most "targeted" items have tags inside, the doorway gates aren't fool-proof. Besides, the security tags can be defeated by someone with the right know-how.

Shoplifting isn't a problem for Amazon anyway - though perhaps they do experience occasional pilferage in their distribution centers.

About big boxes with little things inside. You are assuming a human boxed it up. I run a Xerox copier and they have a robot that does final packaging of supplies. Works 24/7 with no coffee breaks. They can't have ten different box sizes. I'm not defending them. It's just what the machine can and cannot do. The box is 16"x24"x11". Yeah, it's a waste of space, but they buy only one size box now.

just the act of tearing the entire packaging apart to get the product out, may make some people reluctant or uncomfortable returning it (assuming, of course, it's not defective). Some may psychologically feel it's no longer in the the same condition it was when purchased (can't be repackaged neatly and therefore not resellable) and, as a result, simply keep it anyway.

That is entirely possible, though I wouldn't consider it to be overly likely. It could be a valid third or fourth reason some manufacturers may cite if asked, but I suspect it's more likely in most instances to be a coincidental bonus for the retailer.

A suggestion for everyone: A great way to open a clamshell or bubble package is to place it face down on a suitable safe surface and cut along the perimeter ledge with a utility knife or one of the heavier duty blades (not a #11) in an X-Acto or similar hobbyist's knife. Keep your hands clear of the blade! Cut along two or three sides, say the top, bottom, and one side. Slide out the product, but any unused material back in the clamshell and put it somewhere safe for awhile along with the receipt. If you need to return it, put it back in the package. IF it's truly defective, don't worry about closing it up since you don't want someone else to get it. If it's NOT defective but it just doesn't suit you, it is easy to make it look presentable for resale if you take a couple minutes of effort to do so.

The issues that "TiGor" has mentioned could and should be resolved by having customer service reps (labor) at these stores instead of just cashiers and stockers.

Yes, this would work. Like I also mentioned, when everything was behind a counter and you had to ask a shopkeeper for it, there wasn't much spoilage or pilferage. Unfortunately, these old stores also were quite small and had an extremely limited selection and very little actual inventory. They worked well in small towns, and in bigger towns and cities there were just a whole lot of little stores to serve everyone. Today's large merchants with a hundred thousand items of more in stock and perhaps a million items total in their on-hand inventory just can't use that business model. Do not forget that labor is the most expensive ingredient! If they employed enough people to make the old way work, retail prices on things sold in Wal Mart, Target, ShopKo, K-Mart, and whatever else would probably at least triple.

As far as dual packaging goes, there is a serious logistics issue with that. Most product is going to normal retail channels, and a minority is going to Amazon and online retailers. Could it be packed differently for them? Sure. But then the manufacturer would have to set up two packaging lines and start ordering and maintaining a supply of packaging for that second line that wouldn't be used for their original one. The packaging is expensive, but cheaper than what results from not having it, or using the wrong packaging. With one line, any of the product could go anywhere. With two packaging styles, excess of one type of packaging wouldn't be suitable or necessarily welcome going to whoever wasn't asking for it.

A final thought for now: This packaging can have another benefit for the consumer. Let's say you've got a product you really like. So much, in fact, that you buy several of something - possibly on sale - so you've got extras on hand for the day you break or wear out your first whatever-it-is you like so much. Perhaps it's something you like so much you'd like to have a bunch of them to give to family and friends as gifts when the occasions arrive. In a polystyrene clamshell, you can put your extras pretty much wherever and they'll still be as good as new when you dig them out months or even years from now. It won't be dirty, full of dust and cobwebs, scratched up, rusty, or otherwise degraded. Moisture generally stays out of these fairly well, so you could store an unopened product in your attic or garage and it will usually be all right.

"A suggestion for everyone: A great way to open a clamshell or bubble package is to place it face down on a suitable safe surface and cut along the perimeter ledge with a utility knife or one of the heavier duty blades"

No... the solution is for them to stop using the wasteful packaging.

"A final thought for now: This packaging can have another benefit for the consumer"

Are you outing yourself as a marketing person? I can't see how anybody else would EVER suggest ANY benefits to those nasty packages other than "it looks better on the shelf" (who cares!) or theft deterrent (not worth the environmental impact to do it that way).

These packages are one of the many reasons why there is a floating island of plastic debris the size of a continent out in the middle of the ocean. We make plastic but it doesn't break down fast at all - indeed most plastics are designed to be durable - and a lot ends up in the waterways to pollute, look nasty, and harm wildlife - plus of course slowly leech toxic chemicals into our water supplies.

The only solution is to stop using this form of wasteful packaging outright.

McDonald's was afraid when they went from the EVIL foam clamshell containers to paper wraps and paperboard based clamshells that it was going to affect their sales - and that's obviously not been the case. If these morons absolutely must put their products in wasteful packaging, it at least must be mostly made out of paperboard that can be recycled, vs the giant plastic bubble (requiring heroic measures or power tools to open the damn thing).

No... the solution is for them to stop using the wasteful packaging.

Perhaps someone has forgotten the old proverb, "For want on a nail, the shoe was lost; for want of a shoe, the horse was lost..."

Someone please explain to me how the average clamshell or bubble package is more wasteful than the product contained inside of it being ruined and needing to be thrown out? This packaging is not appropriate for all products, but guess what? Not all products come sealed in plastic, either! Not by a long shot.

Are you outing yourself as a marketing person?

Of course I'm a marketing person. In business, NOTHING happens without sales. Marketing is all about selling things! Sometimes I've been the salesman, other times I've been behind-the-scenes. I've spent a lot of time in retail logistics, doing most of my work when the store wasn't even open. In that case, my role in marketing was ensuring the product was where the customer could buy it when they were ready to do so. Without product selling, I wouldn't have been there because whatever company was employing me at the time couldn't afford to pay me if they weren't selling the merchandise they were in the business of selling!

I can't see how anybody else would EVER suggest ANY benefits to those nasty packages other than "it looks better on the shelf" (who cares!) or theft deterrent (not worth the environmental impact to do it that way).

I'm sorry to see that you're so closed minded and that apparently it's your way or the highway when it comes to what other people should or shouldn't do. I get it, you're right and everyone else is wrong. Fair enough. If you ever ran a business, you'd understand that how a product appears on the shelf DOES matter since the customer votes with their pocketbook. If it doesn't look appealing and capture their interest, they're probably not going to buy it. You would also know the extensive damage that theft and other losses of inventory have on your business and that for every one item spoiled or stolen you'd have to sell anywhere from three to five more just to make up for the loss, and you'd still have made NO profit on that product at that point, you'd just have broken even and be where you started. What was that you've been saying about 'waste'?

These packages are one of the many reasons why there is a floating island of plastic debris the size of a continent out in the middle of the ocean.

The reason that stuff is in the ocean is because people don't properly dispose of it when they're through with it (polystyrene and polyethylene both recycle very well) or take reasonable precautions to make sure their plastic items aren't blown away by the wind, swept away by the waves, or washed overboard.

We make plastic but it doesn't break down fast at all

Heat and ultraviolet light from the sun sure as hell break it down fast...well within a year in most cases, especially polyethylene and polystyrene. The only way to prevent that is to either keep it indoors or buried underground. It also becomes very brittle in low temperatures.

indeed most plastics are designed to be durable

Not packaging materials. Nobody pays extra for UV inhibitors or specifies any type of high grade polymers for something meant to be thrown out shortly after purchase. Cost is an object, you know!

and a lot ends up in the waterways to pollute, look nasty, and harm wildlife - plus of course slowly leech toxic chemicals into our water supplies.

...Which was also happening LONG before polymers showed up in packaging. Metals, rubber products, and glass as well as an abhorrent amount of chemicals and sewage was being deposited in waterways and harming wildlife before my grandparents were even born.

"Not all products come sealed in plastic, either! Not by a long shot."

Far too many things that should be behind a counter are instead put into these nasty things. Or if the store can't staff at those levels, instead of using the wasteful one-use clamshells they can use the multi-use security boxes such as have been used for many years for DVDs and other 'high risk' items.

Open your mind for a sec, will ya? Your type needs to think ALL the way through a plan - and if the plan ever requires an obscene amount of production or packaging waste per item, then you go back to the drawing board - as you have FAILED.

"Of course I'm a marketing person. In business, NOTHING happens without sales. Marketing is all about selling things!"

Sadly, you think that's a good thing... to make hype when it's not necessary. What your type doesn't get is that most products sell themselves - doing all sorts of crazy ads doesn't change the sales figures one bit, despite your poorly calculated "market studies" - it is only good at getting the attention of people who would otherwise be ignorant of your chain. To the people well aware of the chain, however, they already will have a preferred place to shop - and in general will frequent the same store if it has a location near where they are.

I am one of the types that will avoid Wal-Mart due to their flagrant violations of various Federal and State laws, as well as common sense - many of their stores have pallets of products sitting right in the middle of intersections on the major aisles. The store employees were instructed to place it there by a clueless sale/marketing idiot by the way. It's bad enough just navigating around that as it is with a cart, but when I would try to bring my grandfather in his wheelchair to that store it was a serious risk of injury to him due to how the traffic had to flow around that obstacle and it wasn't quite wide enough to fit even a normal sized wheelchair.

Wal-Mart fails miserably, for that and so many other reasons - so I will never give my money to them unless I'm traveling and they're the only thing nearby. All due to their marketing teams utter failure to have a clue. You can be the largest retailer in the world and still fail miserably... and they're the poster child for that. Their annoying ads would never change my opinion in that regard either, so it's just wasted airtime - they can NEVER get me as a repeat customer. I'll be over at Target instead.

"If you ever ran a business, you'd understand that how a product appears on the shelf DOES matter since the customer votes with their pocketbook"

Been there, done that - and you're wrong - they vote with what product they want to buy, tied in with numerous other factors. Including how wasteful the packaging is. You can pretend to yourself that you're right but look at all of the posts in this thread... you're not. What you don't get is many people will actually avoid the item that is packaged as if we have never had an Earth Day... since instead of using some form of reusable security enclosure, you've opted to allow the manufacturer to send you wasteful packages. You actually drive DOWN sales by having something that clearly was designed to look good on the shelf but is wasteful.

"I get it, you're right and everyone else is wrong."

No just you, and the narrow minded people like you who pay attention only to the daily sales figure for the store and not the bigger factors - such as not destroying the planet in the process of selling a couple of extra widgets without having to do a chargeback to the manufacturer.

"The reason that stuff is in the ocean is because people don't properly dispose of it when they're through with it"

Risk avoidance... what didn't need to be manufactured (for a one time use) in the first place never could have the opportunity to litter/pollute. And you are incorrect also... a lot of the scattered debris comes during waste management processes - things blow away in the wind and will eventually be washed out to the ocean - it's how watersheds have worked since long before humans have been around. Nice TRY to make a valid excuse, but BIG FAIL.

"Heat and ultraviolet light from the sun sure as hell break it down fast."

First of all, very wrong. There's tons of plastic parts in vehicles that last forever, and I've had several "one use" plastic beverage containers that I've had for over a decade - so try your LIES on somebody without a clue. Second of all, why would you ever waste that many resources for a disposable package - when you could just as easily use a reusable security case (like for DVDs) instead. Many stores use them - apparently you've never left your own store. Even packaging plastics have all sorts of additives to give them the right properties for an application - if you think it's pure PS, HDPE, etc - you're VERY mistaken.

"It also becomes very brittle in low temperatures."

You're joking right? No temperature that you're ever going to find within the lower 48 will significantly impact a typical packaging plastic - designed to be tamper resistant and durable.

"Not packaging materials. Nobody pays extra for UV inhibitors or specifies any type of high grade polymers for something meant to be thrown out shortly after purchase. Cost is an object, you know!"

And you actually believe that line of LIES? You're either very ignorant of thermoplastics or you've been brainwashed hook, line, and sinker. EVERY packaging plastic is chock full of chemicals to get the proper strength and durability - so it will stretch vs crack. As I said before, you really don't have a clue. Each and every so called assertion you make is simply WRONG, on all levels.

Indeed, most films for thermoform plastics are made of several layers of different plastics bonded together - with the inner layer of a type that melts at a lower temperature, so the ultrasonic welder that seals the clamshell will partially melt the outer layer but completely melt the thin inner layer to make sure the seal is strong. The difference between those plastics are the very same additives that you claim are not put in to save money.

You like to pretend you know what you're talking about, but it's obvious you have no idea at all how plastic film formulations come about. It's obvious that you're just pulling your assertions out of your ass, as you're simply wrong on all levels.

"Which was also happening LONG before polymers showed up in packaging"

So that's supposed to be an excuse for being wasteful?

Wow, I made the assertion that sales and marketing people are just a step above Neanderthal stupid, and have you ever proven me right. Thanks!

Chouse,

Gotta' love you, friend! A reason for laughter is always welcome in this world...

Far too many things that should be behind a counter are instead put into these nasty things. Or if the store can't staff at those levels, instead of using the wasteful one-use clamshells they can use the multi-use security boxes such as have been used for many years for DVDs and other 'high risk' items.

I have long worked for a retailer where the manager admits we're a grocery store that also sells general merchandise, not a department store that also sells groceries, which is the common perception. In the last few years, more than half our sales volume has been groceries. How many plastic clamshells do you see in the grocery department? A few things in the baking aisle for cake decorating. That's about it. Everything else is in a can, a box, a paper wrapper, or a bag. You get over to the liquids and you start finding plastic bottles and a very few glass ones. All of this easily recycles. Soda cans and bottles are returnable for a deposit.

Could they put grocery products in sturdy, reusable packaging? Sure. They always have for some things, as I frequently reuse HDPE butter tubs and sometimes glass bottles for other uses, but the trick would be getting those containers back for reuse. Those packages would take far more plastics and energy to manufacturer, but would most likely still end up in the trash most of the time unless people could be induced to bring them back. Without very good cause, most people probably won't. Even a cash refund of deposit paid on bottles and cans isn't enough to keep a number of people from dumping those cans and bottles all over and throwing them in the trash instead of returning them.

What your type doesn't get is thatmost products sell themselves - doing all sorts of crazy ads doesn't change the sales figures one bit, despite your poorly calculated "market studies" - it is only good at getting the attention of people who would otherwise be ignorant of your chain.

Yes, most products sell themselves, because of marketing. Advertising is merely a PART of marketing, which starts from the moment the product is conceived. There are hundreds of thousands of products that not one advertisement has been created for. The appeal of the product sitting on the retailer's shelf as the shoppers walk by IS the advertising. Period.

Unless you're in some kind of a niche market where your reputation precedes you and you're so specialized in something that word of mouth gets the job done, advertising is essential. This lesson has been learned time and time again. When times get tough, it's tempting to cut back on advertising to save money. This is one foot in the grave for many businesses. Buying a smaller ad is one thing. Cut your advertising altogether, and it's amazing how many people will forget about you, especially if your primary competition is the big box stores like Wal Mart and Target people gravitate toward.

I wrote, "If you ever ran a business, you'd understand that how a product appears on the shelf DOES matter since the customer votes with their pocketbook". To which your reply was,

Been there, done that - and you're wrong - they vote with what product they want to buy, tied in with numerous other factors. Including how wasteful the packaging is.

As some people say on the internet, I'm LMFAO! That's great! What a hoot! You're telling me I'm wrong and then essentially telling me exactly what I'd said. Nice.

Unless, of course, the fantasy business you ran functioned on people merely telling you what product they'd buy from you and explaining the reasoning of their decisions. In the real world, either they buy the product with money, or they don't. If they don't buy enough from you, you're out of business.

I observed something I've learned first hand through the years, which was,"Heat and ultraviolet light from the sun sure as hell break it down fast." Your take on it was,

First of all, very wrong. There's tons of plastic parts in vehicles that last forever, and I've had several "one use" plastic beverage containers that I've had for over a decade - so try your LIES on somebody without a clue.

I wish I could be wrong about that! Now, the plastic parts in vehicles are mostly ABS, polyurethanes, polyesters, and nylon. They're rather highly engineered for performance and to resist degradation. The auto makers pay no small sum of money to ensure these products can be expected to last the life of the vehicle, and they use them because they cost less to use in the manufacture of the car or truck than metal parts once did, including energy use, which they also have to pay for! I'm a 'car guy' and I do a fair amount of bodywork and wrench turning, so I know this stuff. In fact, I just did some yesterday afternoon.

I've done farm and construction work as long as I've been in retail, and I can tell you how well polyethylene sheeting holds up after a year outdoors. Sunlight breaks it down and it begins to disintegrate. A five gallon bucket or even an HDPE milk jug repurposed for something else will be breaking down in the sun before long. You go to pick it up, and it comes apart in your hands.

Second of all, why would you ever waste that many resources for a disposable package - when you could just as easily use a reusable security case (like for DVDs) instead. Many stores use them - apparently you've never left your own store.

If you take a careful look at a bubble package, you'd see that the volume of polystyrene used is small. A little goes a long way when its rolled out into a sheet a few thousandths of an inch thick. A reusable package is used if it's reasonable to do so, such as when a product comes in its own storage case, which adds value to the product. If it's something where a durable case would probably be discarded by the consumer anyway, they're not going to spend the money to package it in a durable case that will take several times as much plastic. I hand build many things, and one of the materials I use is polymer. I can attest that they're not as inexpensive as most people have been lead to believe.

You're joking right? No temperature that you're ever going to find within the lower 48 will significantly impact a typical packaging plastic - designed to be tamper resistant and durable.

Again, I wish it was a joke. I live well within the lower 48, and from December through February we commonly encounter temperatures low enough to cause polystyrene and polyethylene to become brittle. Out on the farm, plastic containers break with alarming regularity when it's down around zero degrees, or colder. In the store, product comes off the truck frozen and burst. Or if it survived the trip, a plastic container that would have been resilient at normal temperatures splits or shatters when dropped or even if something else gets set on top of it. I see it all the time. I don't know where you live, but I'm guessing you've not moved much snow in your life.

And you actually believe that line of LIES? You're either very ignorant of thermoplastics or you've been brainwashed hook, line, and sinker. EVERY packaging plastic is chock full of chemicals to get the proper strength and durability - so it will stretch vs crack.

I WORK with plastics fairly extensively, have been for over 25 years now. I know what they will and won't do, and why. I also have enough business background to know that a successful company does not unnecessarily complicate things because everything they do costs them money. They purchase a higher performance plastic when they need it for some reason. For vacuuforming, you don't need much. A lot of the packages I see are of a lower grade polystyrene than I use in the workshop for building architectural miniatures and vehicle replicas.

Chouse, you've been great comic relief for the morning. Ordinarily, I avoid people who are as negative as you are and I feel sorry for those unfortunate enough to have to live and work around you. But, the things you wrote were so ironic and dramatic that a reasonable person could take them at their face value and chalk them up to an attempt at humor.

Have a good day. Go shop somewhere where all merchandise arrives in wood crates delivered on trains, then grab lunch somewhere...but make sure your unwrapped sandwich is set on a bare tray by the cashier (who's been handling cash all day long) and absolutely insist the preparer wear no Vinyl gloves when putting it together. We wouldn't want to be wasteful now, would we?

I could bother to waste my time replying to each of your (still) false assertions, but it's not worth the effort, so I'll just laugh at a few of your attempts at flames, which are about as potent as your intellect seems to be.

You try to bring up groceries when we were clearly talking about products in clamshell packaging? Fail.

You act like a 1 mil poly film is somehow ANYTHING like a clamshell container. Fail.

You act like you're the only person who has ever lifted a shovel to plow snow, and you're sorely mistaken - and once again we're talking about the clamshell packages - which you clearly are not familiar with the manufacture and industrial use of.

Whereas you've apparently worked retail for McMinimum most of your life, I've done extensive R&D work at a multi million dollar in production a day company, and we used a variety of thermoplastics, films and foil containers - and I know VERY well what they are made out of, as you so clearly DO NOT. Have you ever toured the facilities where it's manufactured and actually seen what goes into them? CLEARLY NOT.

Have you ever worked with a vendor (one of the largest packaging suppliers in the world) and designed a custom film blend that provided a completely airtight seal with less than half the plastic use as the typical container used by the competition? Once again, CLEARLY NOT.

"I WORK with plastics fairly extensively, have been for over 25 years now"

Stocking the shelves does not count...

"Chouse, you've been great comic relief for the morning"

You're delusional if that was funny to you, as your previous post was filled with one false assertion after another - and this last post was you trying your best (but still failing miserably) at trying to avoid actually commenting on what I said.

"Go shop somewhere where all merchandise arrives in wood crates delivered on trains, then grab lunch somewhere"

Nobody said we need to use wood crates - the point was that we need avoid wasteful packaging. You pretend that your retail experience is somehow valuable - well I have saved several companies I've worked for multiple millions of dollars each in designing optimized packages (after I developed the product that goes into them). Can you say that? Clearly not.

Don't try to pretend to be the rabid dog on here - you never know who you're going to run into.

You really need to read up more about plastics, and stop trying to pretend you're knowledgeable, as you are very obviously NOT. And understand that to most people, advertising does not influence their decision to buy a new product one bit - it is only useful to introduce people to new products they were not already aware of.

Great news for shoplifters.

Great news for shoplifters.

So what do you suppose the cost of purloined merchandise is relative to the cost of 800 lbs per shopper per year packaging thrown away into landfills? Would I pay say 10 cents more per battery package to not have to deal with clamshells? Absolutely.

R. Scalzo, are you implying that shoplifting is down because of the packaging? I see empty shells lying around in stores all the time....

I see empty shells lying around in stores all the time....

Maybe we should ask the thieves how to get into it!

He is correct tho, the package designs are the way they are to make it more difficult to open items on the fly in stores. Of course the shoplifters have it figured out already and come prepared, whereas at home I end up using a butcher knife because the shears are never where they're effin supposed to be, and nearly cut off my @!$%#ing arm.

It's kind of like software DRM, people who steal the stuff never have to deal with the security protocols, or only have to do so once, then repeat the fix, whereas folks who buy it legit are stuck with built in problems.

Not to worry, they're improving that. The next toy purchase will require a cutting laser instead. You do own one, right?

How did they ship toys and electronics 50 years ago?

I don't remember my folks ever having so much trouble with getting into packages.

Christmas morning, we gather around the Christmas tree with our hot cocoa (or coffee), Mom's Monkey Bread, camera and the pliers, scissors, wire cutters and ginormous trash bag. It's a tradition.

Ever try to get Barbie out of the box? She is wired down with tape covering the wires. Also her hair is sewn into the box, through some plastic with tape holding that down. In case Mattel missed it, Toy Story is a cartoon, it's not real! The toys do not come alive and escape out of the boxes at night!

Probably a lawsuit resulted in some of the packaging.

Better than being damaged in transit, right? Floating loose around the box? Why don't companies still use packing peanuts? Easier to re-use than all those plastic air pillows that can get punctured so easily-recycle, people!

I forgot to mention the screwdrivers. Flathead and three sizes in Phillips head. Because they also screw things to the packages.

catastic - Packing peanuts are the most useless and inefficient form of packaging there is. Packing peanuts shift around as soon as the box is in transit, causing the item to sink to the bottom and get thrown around. Bubble wrap and 'air pillows' actually keep the item still.

Yes. But packing peanuts are so much fun to play in. *wink

I have no background in the subject (at least not in the civilian retail world), but I'd say theft/pilferage prevention and shelf-appeal are probably the two primary factors behind virtually all consumer item packaging. So, it probably IS the retail industry that has pushed for overpackaging.

Software is a perfect example! You don't need a cereal box to contain one or two CD-ROMs.

I just received two computer games with one purchase. It came from the same place, it was in stock, but was sent out on the same day from the same place to the same address and it was sent separately for some unknown reason.

One was in an oversized envelope, the other in a cardboard box. Both arrived in perfect condition and there was no clamshell in sight :)

I buy all my games electronically, no waste at all and my keys are always available.

I ordered a DVD online from Borders back in January that took a week and a half longer to get than if I had gone to the store on its release date. Why? I had assumed (first mistake right there) my DVD would be in one of the small mailer boxes made for DVDs. Instead, it was in a pizza box sized (no, really) envelope that counted as "over-sized" to the post office and caused them to delay delivering it. And it's not like it was any better protected than the smaller, easier to ship, box.

A book shouldn't even require a box.

No? Well they need something. I usually order used books from individual sellers unless it's a gift. I've had some arrive in nothing but a plain large envelope, and they're almost always damaged. Delivery services can be rough, and I wouldn't want to give a damaged book as a gift.

On the whole though, I agree. This world needs a lot less packaging. Don't even get me started on toys with plastic or wire ties. Grrrr.

I think that the Amazon shipping method helps to ensure that the book arrives in pristine condition. If it was just placed in the box, especially with other items, movement during shipment would crease and/or smudge covers and damage pages. I like the way that they ship.

A book shouldn't require a box? That's about as brainless a thing as I've ever heard. Apparently you prefer books arriving looking like they've been through a war.

Amazon's packages are EASY to open.

I got a book from Amazon, ordered brand new, not used, and it was in a bubble-wrap envelope. Did the trick and the book was in great condition.

And they always seem to be on the cheapest items. I bought 3 timers last week for Christmas lights. Their total cost was less than 15.00. They came in clamshells so thick it would have taken a blow torch to open them. Seems like the cheaper the product the worse the clamshell. It takes a lot of packaging to get those 50 cent items from China undamaged.

You almost answered your own question there. Manufacturers actually make more money off the markups of cheap crap sold in mass quantities than they get from high-end electronics due to the competition involved. Sometimes the packaging is worth more than the product in raw manufacturing costs, but the presentation and markup ability more than offset. I wouldn't be surprised if $15 in Xmas lights actually only cost 50 cents to make.

Ask you r pharmacist if they have the item in a non-childproof container. Some things do, especially for households where there's no one but seniors.

But WalMart started it to begin with.

Walmart started it?

Yes, but when you feed the beast, it always comes back to bite you!

I'm sorry but as much as I dislike Walmart, they did not "start" this type of packaging. It absolutely predates Walmart being the dominant force in the market it is today. Its origins are with maunfacturers, distributors, and retailers wanting to miminize shrinkage and other forms of loss. Yes, Walmart has since encouraged it, but so has every other retailer.

I'm proud to say that I have not been a customer of Walmart for over ten years, and somehow my house isn't full of cheap junk!

The individual packaging and bar coding has evolved from two primary area's theft/loss prevention (stealing and damage) and inventory control. Back in the day clerks actually had to know what an item was and how much it cost to ring it up. The management would then inventory what was on the shelves add what had been sold and it should equal what was purchased by the store. Thats back when people had some education and sense.

Now with the dumbing down of america and clerks simply stand and scan they do not have to have any sense or knowledge and inventory is computerized and performed off of the bar codes. Try taking an item to a register/clerk with out a bar code on it, even if you offered to pay double for the item they do not know how to sell it to you.

A good slaes clerk who knew prices and where everything was in the store and could recommend and push other items and still keep a customer smiling was worth their weight in salary. But they are about as rare as a hardware store with actual hardware experienced people or car parts stores were staff actually know how cars work.

Same for some DVD's. I would need three hands to press down all the prongs on the plastic button while simultaneously lifting the edge of the disk.

Yes! Xbox games cost 4-5 times as much as a dvd but come in the same crappy package. I have learned to be very careful with them after damaging 2-3 of them. A salesperson at GS told me he just keeps his games in the little envelopes and secures the envelopes behind the plastic tabs that hold the manual down. I haven't had to do that but it sounds like it would work.

The cost of fuel and equipment doesn't have anything to do with the cost of shipping does it? It's all the fault of Unions, and the last I knew FedEx wasn't unionized. It costs me more in gas to drive to a store to pick up something, than to have it shipped. Do you have any idea what is involved in getting a package from one point to another?

Most of the shipping costs charged by the companies are actually "handling" charges. When you look at the cost of shipping on the box it is nowhere near the price that you pay to have it shipped. Honks me off every time.

Well here is an example of a well informed public. Excuse the sarcasm but it doesn't take much to find out that FedEx is NOT union. They are, in fact, aggressively anti-union. FedEx is also one of the largest corporate political donors (most going to republicans), was a major contributor to the Bush administration, and nearly tripled UPS lobbying dollars last year. Oh, BTW, their rates are also marginally higher than UPS.

FedEx is NOT union

Yes, and no...

Their pilots are members of the ALPA.

Their drivers and package handlers are not unionized but the teamsters keep trying. It should be noted that the primary reason FedEx has been able to fend off efforts at unionizing their drivers and package handlers is because the rules that apply to FedEx employess (RLA) are not the same as those that apply to UPS employees (NLRA). FedEx drivers are treated as "contract employees" whereas UPS drivers are not. Of course, UPS has been lobbying hard to get Congress to amend the law so that Fedex drivers/handlers are covered by the NLRA instead of the RLA.

Sorry, my Fiskars don't help. I still get cut nearly every time. The problem is the partly cut side of the package which slices the side of my finger when I try to cut deeper down the length of the package. I should not have to put on shop gloves to open the d@mn clam-shells!!!

I wonder if hand size has anything to do with being able to use scissors effectively on packages. I have small hands and always use scissors, yet still end up with a huge mess.

I understand there may be some legit reasons for the evil clamshell packaging - thwarting shoplifters, protecting items - but I also don't see why someone hasn't invented clamshell packaging that comes with an easier way to open it, like a pull-tab or something.

Actually clamshell packages to protect against shoflifting is rather pointless at the moment because you can put those little pieces of metal on them that set off alarms. Also there are security cameras everywhere in stores so it's rather easy to track down an individual that steals something.

There's a little doodad I got as a gift years ago that looks like a hockey puck with a thin wedge cut out of it. Nothing including sharp scissors works better for cutting clamshell packaging. It just zips right through even the thickest armored plastic. Problem is, I can't find the thing anywhere on the Internet because I'm sure the one I have is going to wear out someday, so I rarely use it to make it last as long as I possibly can.

Have u tried something like this to open up packages??

You as a consumer have control over this issue. Manufacturers and retailers tend to respond to those who buy in order to retain your business. If people refused to purchase any items wrapped in these manners retailers would soon demand different packaging from the manufacturer and change would be made.

Dont like it....dont buy it, speak with your dollars.

Few shoplift Pringles. Expensive games are one of the first targets of the thieves. Batteries were also popular. Some of the specific lithium ones are ten dollars each. If DVD's weren't in those larger cases they would fly off the shelves.

Then the answer is to keep them locked in glass cases like they used to be, and removed only for purchase at a register in electronics.

I went to a WalMart for something else (I normally don't shop there) and a movie had come out. I thought 'since I'm here'. I changed my mind when I saw all their movies were behind glass and I would need to track down an employee to get the movie I wanted. So any store with their movies behind glass would lose my business. Video games behind glass don't bother me so much because I buy far fewer of them.

That is the real problem. It's a lot easier for honest shoppers to order online and not have to find an employee that actually knows where they work.

The real reason Amazon and Walmart are changing their mind here is that consumers are changing it for them. Amazon never had an excuse, but Walmart is suddenly finding out that it's cheaper to sell most things online then in big-box stores. Well, except for food of course.

Floretta and phoenix,

The problem with products behind glass is that the store needs dedicated staff to serve those customers. Just having a button switch on a light or a pager is not adequate for most on-the-go shoppers. Clamshells with RFID chips allow the big box stores to concentrate stop-loss staff at the doors to stop shoplifters.

Clamshell packaging was developed display the actual product, in a package large enough to be difficult to conceal. And yes, it was indeed developed at the behest of big-box stores. If you go to Radioshack, almost all of the inhouse product is in poly bags or cardboard/pasteboard cartons. Only out of house product has clamshells. Of course, any Radioshack store always seems to have two clerks for every customer.

Isn't "crap" music currently referred to as "hip-hop"?

"rap music" is an oxymoron!

Recently bought ink cartridges and they were in are-usable clamshell removed at the register. The seems appropriate for expensive yet small items. i think another reason retailers like the other clamshell is you must destroy them to open them so people don't return items with a destroyed package, neither do they take them out of the package in the store to look at. The tags work for shoplifting however if the tag is on the package and they take it out, then no tag to go off at the entrance. There has to be a better way. I have broken so many things trying to get them out of the package and hate the waste- for cosmetic lotion giant package for a small tube of cream. what a waste

It would probably be cheaper these days to go back to glass cases with a staff member to service the public.

we simply have too many thieves here.

Yep, lawyers, bankers and most politicians...

Have you seen the new Barbies? Oh yeah! Her frustration with the packaging is only the prelude to a life full of broken self confidence.

P.S. undo all that crap prior to wrapping.

But in five years, the box that Barbie came in will be worth more than the doll.

Try the stuff that goes with barbie. I bought my young neice a barbie corvette and townhouse for her birthday........her dad and other uncle are union contractors so they went to put the townhouse together for her......half way into the project they went on strike and now its approaching Christmas and its still sitting there half finished.

Her cousin offered to assemble to corvette for $5.00, but once into the job claimed he found a bunch of other hidden repairs and now wants an additional $200.00 or he will put a lien on it and keep it himself.

HAHAHAHAHA

What does that say about the kid though and the amount of gifts she recieves if within the 10 minutes dad opens the gifts she has already forgotten about it and no longer cares?

I totally remember seeing commercials for those and thinking it was @!$%#ing genius.

Though now I can't help imagining the rage and/or lulz if those things came in clamshells.

Do they come packaged in a clamshell?

I saw that advertised. Thought it was a good product but couldn't bring myself to pay money for a tool to open a package! Seemed silly.

Gift horse? Wow, you really are a dolt. Walmart has never given me anything. They could nuke every Walmart in the country and it wouldn't bother me a bit.

Yes, and if "the government" tried to regulate packaging, some people would scream their heads off. When Wal-Mart does the same thing, it is applauded.

I think if they nuked every Walmart you would be suffering from radiation sickness no matter where you lived.

Grandfather-2041741

Really?? What sad little lives WE must live??? He who feels the need to defend Wal*Mart? Really? Now if you ask me, that's sad! Do you not no the difference between clout, and money to buy what you want, i.e. Congressman, Senators, and anyone else that actually has the "clout" and ability to make a "positive change" . Really??? Yes am a Wal*Mart hater, for lots of reasons. But I do NOT have a sad little life! But I wish you happy shopping at the Evil Empire, the killer of American jobs, and small businesses!

debbie-3102423

Do you perhaps not know that know is not spelled no?

BTW, I loathe Walmart but the argument that they killed small business was (and still remains) BS. They filled a void in an already dying segment of the US economy and offered lower prices than the traditional local retailer. I guess the poor should be obliged to pay more for things so that some can feel morally superior.

You might also ask people in a rural place like Farmington, NM whether they preferred their shopping choices before or after Walmart (and Sam's Club). You probably would not like the answer since in complicates a black and white view of the world. Yes, I am far to the left of most people I know but, as a professional archaeologist, have actually lived in places like Farmington in the past. It is diffcult to view the world in black and white if you actually pay attention to peoples' day to day struggles and the basic realities of survival. This goes for both conservatives and pseudo-liberals.

As much as I dislike Walmart, it provides people with access to goods to which they would NEVER have had access in the glorified and mythological past. Oh, the accelerated shift to a suburban society, and the flight from urban centers (both large and small), killed the local retailer....

Common sense? Practicality? And, the ability to see someone elses point of view? Wow! Stephen in AZ, can you please run for president?

I have taken to buying meds (non-prescription) according to the way they are packaged, then often I will hold onto the decent packaging and refill with cheaper generics. I do this with Advil - the advil childproof ontainers are much easier to open (for me) than generic brands, but the generic meds work just as well. So I keep a couple of advil jars around - then I buy a large package of Target or Walgreens or whatever no-name brand, and refill the advil jars with them.

Ask you r pharmacist if they come in non-childproof containers. Many medications do, but yo have to ask.

It appears to me only children can open "Child proof" pill bottles..... Hmmmm??

You can thank civil litigation lawyers for the bubble packaging in a lot of medications. Legally only a licensed nurse can "dispense" medications, which is basically taking the pill out of the bottle and putting it in a cup to hand to the user. To do so by any one other than a license nurse could bring lawsuits to the people doing this and their employers. But it is legal to hand some one a bubble package and let them "dispense" the medication to themselves.

Many manufacturers always go for the most cost effective and easiest routes with product handling, when you see anything more complicated or assinine looking its usually the result of a politician or lawyer.

Writing these steps down.

Could you supply a statics diagram with force vectors, please? Ha, ha! In my experience, that plastic does NOT rip and forcing your hand inside any opening that you manage to make just brings the razor sharp edges in contact with skin and THAT's how you end up bleeding.