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Jessica Rinaldi / Reuters
Street signs mark the intersection of Main Street and Wall Street in Windom, Texas. After two months of Occupy Wall Street protests, Wall Street and Main Street are still talking past each other.
It was a telling moment at the height of the Occupy Wall Street protests.
John Paulson, the hedge-fund trader who famously made billions betting on the collapse of the housing market, was threatened by the demonstrators with a march on his Upper East Side home in New York last month. Paulson responded by putting out a press release that described his $28 billion, 120-person fund as an exemplar of the American Dream: "Instead of vilifying our most successful businesses, we should be supporting them and encouraging them to remain in New York City."
Other captains of finance like to portray themselves as humble entrepreneurs. One owner of a multi-billion-dollar hedge fund grumbled in the midst of the financial crisis that he has to worry not only about making trading decisions but also about "all the hassles the come with running a small business."
With U.S. cities moving this week to crack down on Occupy Wall Street encampments - including the one in New York's Zuccotti Park - the staying power of the movement is in question. Whatever its future, it's clear that so far, the Occupiers haven't changed many minds on Wall Street over blame for the country's hard times. The cognitive disconnect between the protesters and the captains of finance is alive and well.
David Mooney, chief executive officer of Alliant Credit Union in Chicago, one of the nation's larger credit unions, used to work at a one of Wall Street's top banks, JPMorgan Chase. There's a vast cultural gap between Wall Street and his new world, he says. Old friends from the Street, now jokingly refer to him as a "socialist."
A credit union is supposed to be run in the interests of all members, he says, while commercial bankers tend to see consumers as customers who can be "exploited" by layering on more fees.
Says Mooney: "I don't say this lightly, but the consumer is simply an income stream and exploiting that is the purpose of the banking organization."
In conversations with nearly two dozen current and former bankers, finance professionals and money managers across the United States, the prevailing sentiment is that the anger at Wall Street's elite is misguided and misdirected. Blame the politicians and policymakers in Washington, many of them say, for encouraging people to buy homes they couldn't afford and doing nothing to stop or discourage U.S. consumers from piling on more than $10 trillion in household debt.
"I think everyone gets what the anger is about... But you just can't say, 'Well I want all debts forgiven.' That is not happening," says one West Coast trader, who like most still working in the financial services industry, declined to be identified by name in this article.
The disconnect, says Jason Ader, a former top Wall Street casino analyst turned hedge fund manager, is in part a simple product of Wall Street's isolation from the hardship out there. Ader says he spends a lot of his time in Las Vegas, one of America's hardest-hit housing markets, and thus wasn't too surprised by this fall's anti-Wall Street outburst.
"I see plenty of despair in places like Las Vegas, where in some neighborhoods every other house is vacant or foreclosed and lots are overgrown by weeds," says Ader, who sits on the boards of Las Vegas Sands Corp and a small Nevada community bank called Western Liberty Bancorp.
But the 43-year-old Ader, who manages $200 million in his hedge fund, says it's a different story for many of the wealthy who work in finance in New York City and don't spend a lot of time in states with high unemployment and high foreclosure rates. Living in Manhattan or the Hamptons or hedge fund havens like Greenwich, Connecticut, can lead to a bit of myopia, he says.
"At first I had friends who were scratching their heads at the protests," says Ader.
Blame game
To put it bluntly, many on Wall Street still see the events leading up to the financial crisis as a case of banks having legitimately sold something - whether it be mortgages or securities backed by those loans - that someone wanted to buy.
Thomas Atteberry, a partner and portfolio manager with Los Angeles-based First Pacific Advisors, a $16 billion money management firm, says his success "wasn't a gift" and he had to work hard to get where he is. Atteberry says he understands the frustration many feel about income inequality. But he said the problem isn't with those who are successful, but rather our "tax codes and regulations."
While some members of the financial elite say they are willing to pay higher taxes, they note the picture for Wall Street firms is not as sunny as some on Main Street might paint it. Wall Street banks already are beginning to shed jobs, and consulting firm Johnson Associates Inc. is predicting bonuses for those who remain will shrink by 20 percent to 30 percent.
Complaints over new financial regulations burdening Wall Street firms are a major reason blamed for the layoffs. Sit down with a hedge fund manager or a top trader and it won't take long before he or she grabs some spreadsheet that shows all the new rules and regulations coming out of the Dodd-Frank financial reform bill.
Many of America's well-to-do, not just Wall Streeters, say they don't feel particularly advantaged. A recent survey by marketing firm HNW Inc. found that half of the nation's richest 1 percent "don't see themselves as being part of that elite group." Also, 44 percent of those surveyed told HNW's pollsters they already pay too much in taxes.
Maybe it is just the ethos of Wall Street, where success is defined solely by who makes the most money, that makes it hard for financiers to feel they've wronged anyone. But in a time of 9 percent unemployment and 15 percent of U.S. citizens receiving food stamps, some Wall Street alums say the financial elite are doing themselves no favors by giving the appearance of shrugging off the current mood.
"I think Wall Street hasn't taken in how much anger there is out there and they haven't taken partial responsibility for the financial crisis," says Brookings Institution fellow Douglas Elliott, who was an investment banker for two decades before joining the liberal-oriented public policy group. "I think both sides - Wall Street and Main Street - misunderstand each other."
Some who get paid to advise the rich on how to deal with the media and the public are telling clients to pay attention.
Robert Dilenschneider, founder and principal of The Dilenschneider Group corporate consulting group, recently sent a report to his clients telling them that many of the protesters taking part in the Occupy movement are not a bunch of unemployed crazies and hippies.
"The CEOs in big board rooms in Paris, in Zurich and New York don't normally think about people who are demonstrating in parks," says Dilenschneider, whose firm advises some of the biggest companies in the world. "In the banking and financial area, we are telling our clients you have to explain more completely what makes up your business and why your profits are what they are."
Mom and pop funds
Some of the disconnect is simply a matter of lifestyle and the fact that the super wealthy really do live differently from everyone else. Hedge fund managers and bankers fly around on private jets, live in palatial penthouse apartments overlooking Central Park and have second homes in the country.
In New York City, the average pay for those working in finance is $361,183, more than five times the average salary of $66,106 for all workers in the city, according to the New York State Department of Labor.
This disparity in income and attitudes was evident in the response of hedge fund managers like Paulson who portrayed themselves as humble businessmen. Says Wall Street historian Charles Geisst, "Hedge funds may be small businesses in terms of labor intensity, but in terms of capital intensity they are just the opposite."
A spokesman for Paulson said he had nothing more to add on the subject.
Former Wall Street practitioners say the Street does not lend itself to a lot of introspection. "The world of investment bankers and especially the trading floor region is notoriously hermetically sealed,'" says Kenneth Froewiss, a retired JPMorgan Chase investment banker and former finance professor at New York University's Stern School of Business. "The walls may be filled with screens beaming the latest news, but there is typically an obliviousness as to what is happening across the street."
There are exceptions, of course. Some are saying it may be time for the government which has bailed out the banking system to help millions of struggling homeowners.
One of those is former top Pacific Investment Management Co executive Paul McCulley, best known for his analysis on central banks and monetary policy when he worked at the world's biggest bond fund. McCulley, who retired a year ago from Newport Beach, California-based PIMCO to become a consultant with a public policy firm, enjoys the wealth he accumulated in his old role. He lives in a house by the water where he docks his two boats. But he says Wall Street went too far.
"Our society was ripe for a convulsion about social justice, and Occupy Wall Street was the catalyst for that," says McCulley. "New York can be very insular. It is not the real world and neither is Newport Beach."
Now that he's no longer working for PIMCO, McCulley is a bit more free to speak his mind. And he says the only way to jumpstart the U.S. economy is for the federal government to get behind a serious program to encourage consumer debt forgiveness and principal reductions on mortgages by banks.
McCulley noted that mortgage firms Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have been propped up by about $169 billion in federal aid since they were rescued by the government in 2008, yet there's a "a moral overtone" to the argument against reducing mortgage debt burdens for individual borrowers.
"Wall Street capitalism has given us a foul stench in our society," says McCulley.
The disconnect continues.
Just this week, top executives at Fannie and Freddie found themselves drawing fire on Capitol Hill for trying to distribute nearly $13 million in bonuses to key employees.
And the October 31 collapse of MF Global Holdings is prompting some critics to say Wall Street hasn't learned any lessons from the financial crisis. The futures brokerage house filed for bankruptcy after investors and traders became fearful that MF Global had taken on too much exposure to European sovereign debt in a bid to juice revenues.
The risky trade was put on by former New Jersey Governor Jon Corzine, a former Goldman Sachs Group chief executive. Last year, Corzine was saying Wall Street investment banks had taken on too much risk in the months leading up to the financial crisis. On the lecture circuit Corzine was calling for tighter regulation of Wall Street, even while his firm was borrowing more and more money to bet on some of the riskiest European debt. A Corzine representative declined to comment.
William Cohan, the author of several Wall Street-related books and a former Lazard investment banker, said MF Global was acting as if the 2007-2008 crisis never happened: "You would have to be living under a rock if you didn't get the message of the financial crisis."
Related stories:
Tea Partier to Occupier: 'Y'all ought to be joining us'
Copyright 2011 Thomson Reuters. Click for restrictions.
Leave a Comment:
It will be very enriching to read all of the forthcoming remarks about how capitalism, innovation, ambition and forward-thinking are all bad, while complaining and obstructing other peoples' right to get to work is what truly defines an American patriot.
You can't be successful if you are Cheating others because of their lack of intellect that is called taking advantage of people in particular situations to feed your greed.
If you do no work and you have 100 employees doing all the work then you should not share equally in the profits!!
And you definitely should not receive 90% of the profits!!!!
That is called cheating and being greedy!!!!
I don't blame wall street, I blame the system (capitalism) which ecourages and rewards greed.
Captains of finance clueless about Occupy's anger
Well, that may or may not be true, however, OWS is clueless as to their own objectives, therefore it is not a movement, but a mob. And as a mob, it will continue to become more unruly and more violent. OWS has now become political poison. Those in elected office, regardless as to how high that office, that defend the actions of OWS, or try to make excuses for OWS will pay a heavy price as OWS behavior becomes more disgusting. This is as it should be as the behavior of OWS is now exactly like that of the Brown Shirts of Hitler. They represent Fascism. They shout down the voice of opposition, denying anyone that disagress with them the freedom of speech and expression they have enjoyed, they constantly turn to violence and intimidation to make their point (whatever that point - as confused as it is - may be).
It is time to bring in the buses and take these unruly fascist punks to jail, try them, fine them, and move on.
I'm really getting sick of the line of argument that our system of "capitalism" rewards hard work, when in reality, our system rewards you for moving your money correctly and finding loopholes. The hard workers in our country are the two and three children families who are struggling to get by on $10-15/hour wages, and corporations are firing workers while they're still making record profits. THOSE are the hard workers.
And the more I hear "well, if we regulate them and blah blah blah, they'll move somewhere else," the more I say, "let them." As soon as they do it, pass legislation that they can't sell their goods here anymore. I guarantee you they'll be willing to compromise on the issue.
As much as you bitch about OWS, know that if you're ANYYYYwhere near being considered "middle-class," they're fighting for your future, and every macing and every arrest is further proof that the other side wants this greedy and erroneous system reformed.
Give me a god damn break people.
They are all clueless, the protesters and the "captains of finance."
What is going to really boil your noodle now is that banks do not lend out existing money. Banks create new money when they make loans and they demand interest for it. Then you work for a lifetime to pay interest for money that was created out of thin air. This is why deflation happens when borrowing slows down. Google for "HOW DO BANKS CREATE MONEY" to learn more. You are all slaves. The matrix is real.
Like my 80 year old father says about the wall street fat cats; "They won't be satisfied until they have it ALL".
Ranman...
Sorry...they are not fighting for me and I do not need them to do so. In Hartford. Connecticut they arrested a small bunch of protesters for sitting down on an exit ramp off the city's main highway. Each was identified as being an SEIU member or a member of some flighty "new economy" activist group. Over the weekend, there were "help wanted" ads in newspapers seeking "activists" at $435 per week. Sorry, but "grassroots" protesters don't take paychecks for protesting.
And any occupier who gets a lick of a "macing" most likely deserves it. They could not even get close to the type of crap they are doing to police officers in any other situation besides this protest. The police put up a barrier fence to try to keep things in some type of order...and the occupiers feel quite free to just grab the barrier and pull it away.
I also hope that when this is over, the rest of us get to see the enormous amount of taxpayer dollars that have been spent across the country in terms of police coverage costs (including 'overtime' costs), repairing damages, clean up & sanitation costs, and court costs for dealing with the thousands who have been arrested. Every single person arrested should be required to pay for their own court costs...why should I or any other taxpayer have to fork over hard earned dollars to pay for the costs of this messy dog & pony show.
'Investment banking' is not capitalism - it is just another form of entitlement. We are all held hostage to maintain that culture of entitlement.
We are enticed to 'save' using 401k plans - and are penalized for accessing OUR money.
We are enticed to save OUR money - and charged for the privilege.
We are measured by credit scores - and enticed to play the game with 'free' reports.
We cannot retire - not enough money. We cannot find jobs - businesses owe too much to shareholders. We cannot move - owe too much on our houses. We cannot start a business - credit score is too low. If we do not devote our lives to maintaining the 'contracts' with investors - the entire economy will fail.
Our energy prices rise - investors are entitled to their profits. Our food prices rise - investors are entitled to their profits. Our taxes rise - investors are entitled to keep 'their' money.
'Investment banking' and investing are not capitalism. Capitalism is based on a simple principle - the customer is always right. Wall Street is the largest entitlement program in the world - the players are always protected - customers do not count.
I would have to say that the media is equally clueless. They are still saying that it is a "democratic movememt with no leaders" and that it "has no message or goals" and is mystified as to how it continues to exist as a movement. The reality is that democracy does not require "leaders" only "executors" since the people are the leaders. And the media seems nott to be able to figure out that the Occupy movement has no goals because it is essentially okay with capitalism and the general way in which this country is structured and operates. What the Occupy movement is about is process. They don't like the way in which the country's institutions are operated. If there was a goal, it would be to have the current institutions operate with equity and fairness and social responsibility.
If you just pause and look around, people everywhere are fed up. The Tea Party and the OWS movement are just the tiny tips of the iceberg. Almost everyone is upset with one or another institution and blaming it on the only instrument that they can, government. At the same time they want limited government and a government which will fix everything in short order. And it ain't gonna happen, folks.
I am 68, so not exactly eligible for antique status yet, but the changes in my lifetime are profound. When I was a young man, you could go to prison for charging over 6% insterest, AFLAC was illegal in every state except Georgia, the stock market reflected the true value of corporations, the financial activities that caused the Bush Recession were all illegal, you could pay for a college education with a part-time job, and corporations were not "persons" and had no rights, including that to make unlimited undisclosed campaign contributions. Everyone sees the change and wonders what went wrong. People are frustrated that they can't tell exactly what happened and find someone to blame. Conspiracy theories abound, a sure sign of frustration and anger. The 99% do not consider all the changes in our society to be all bad, but they do consider that most of them are very bad in some way.
It doesn't take a genius to see that 6% was considered "fair profit" for just about 3,000 years (both the Greeks and Romans made it law and even the Egyptians referred to it) until about the middle to late 1960's. Now a pharmaceutical company "targets" 8,000% profit for a drug (which it bought, but was developed on the taxpayer dollar.) What has changed? You tell me?
Why should they care about misdirected anger from greedy slackers?
If the "protestors" don't want to be angry maybe they should change their lives instead of expecting others to change it for them.
I would like OWS to tell me what is the point where the protests stop? What is the end game?
Also I would like OWS to tell me where is the line between Corporate Greed and Capitalism. Does a company or entrepreneur have a right to make a profit? What is the limit you propose?
I find it amazing that people still confuse Corporatism for Capitalism. We haven't had true capitalism for about a hundred years. The funny thing is, Corporatism is what the majority of the protesters are focused on. Oh, wait! Wasn't it 1913 when we got the the disease of the Federal Reserve Act and its strong arm institution, the IRS? And wasn't it in the 1860s when the SCOTUS gave the rights of "personhood" to these corporations? There's your clues for the day...
The irony is that the Founders were anti-capialist. They believed in mercantilism, the prevailing theory of their day, which is left of Keynesian economics.
Gee, if that's all that's involved in creating wealth, then why don't you just tell the rest of us how to "move money and find loop holes" so we can all be rich?
This may come as a shock to you, but if you only have the job skills /education to earn $10/hour and have a hard time supporting yourself , you should NOT have multiple children to raise. If you choose to do so, that's YOUR PROBLEM! You shouldn't get a dime of anyone else's money!
Exactly how is OWS fighting for ME as part of the middle class? By demanding more of MY money? Taxing the "rich" corporations WILL result in higher prices for the end user - the middle class consumer.
How are they helping the middle class by pushing so many new regulations that a small business owner has to hire a full-time person just to deal with government COMPLIANCE, licensing and paperwork?
How are they helping the middle class people like me by expanding welfare roles to the point that middle class workers like me, earning UNDER $100K/yr are paying over 30% of their income in combined taxes? I am single, no mortgage and no dependents, so I pay through the nose in taxes though I'm not using the tax-payer funded services like public schools, buses, etc. that others with kids have...but I'm sure as hell PAYING FOR IT! The leftists just want MORE of this!
No thanks!
http://www.businessinsider.com/corporate-tax-breaks-2011-2 Not that hard to find, but a lot of them are taking advantage of it through our governmental system, who don't seem to care.
Really? So go tell these people that in 2006 and 2007 when they had children, that they shouldn't have "had those kids." And some of those people DO HAVE THE SKILL SETS. Corporate interests don't give a sh!t. They're still cutting numbers while reaping the profits. Where did I advocate they take somebody else's money? I'm arguing they're not even getting an opportunity to USE their skills sets.
Tax rates have been at their lowest since before Reagan was president, yet the goods in the country continue to rise irregardless.
Because they're not attacking small businesses. They're attacking the corporate interests in this country that are choking off small businesses, which would increase competition, help drive down costs, and influence creativity in the private sector.
Who's advocating an increase in welfare? What they're trying to do is PREVENT people from having to go on welfare, meaning GOOD PAYING JOBS THAT SUPPORT THE MIDDLE CLASS OF THIS COUNTRY.
All you had to do is come out with the whole "leftists" spiel to show who you really are. Anybody slightly left-of-center in this country qualifies as a communist to you, so it's pointless debating with you. Nice to see you misrepresent all of my arguments though, just to make your illogical position look better though.
@ Machine head you pompous ass! It's called being part of a society...The more you prevent people from getting ahead the more you force them to rely on the system to bail people out ie: getting yearly increases that do not keep up with the rate of inflation for the past 10 years. Apparently if you're a business person or big bank its ok to watch out for your bottom line but if you're the head of a household and you're looking out for your bottom line then you are a commie/faciest/socialist etc. We the 99% that are protesting would like to pay our bills on time and in full but our incomes do not keep up. Everything increases but our pay checks and CEO bonuses as well as salaries are increasing why does their pay increase from record profits but nothing trickles down to the employee. Please explain....
I support the right of peaceful protest and assembly, period. The OWS protesters have gone way beyond those rights in many locations with criminal actions and harassment of people with very little to do with Wall Street.
With that said, I need to say this. I will always support our United States of America as well as our Capitalist system, but Capitalism is not selling out long term growth and stability for short term profit. Capitalism is not sucking so bad at your job that it requires a Federal bailout of your firm to keep it afloat !! Capitalism is not thinking that despite your EPIC FAILURE at your job you deserve a "contractually obligated" failure "bonus" which in many cases came out of those taxpayer funded bailouts !!! If a company is successful, then the sky's the limit on executive compensation, but if it has failed to the point it needs a taxpayer funded bailout, then it is absolute garbage to try and defend 7 figure executive "bonuses". Bonuses should be based on success, period !!!!
Anyone working on Wall Street doesn't have a conscience.
Most of these people working on Wall Street are just part of the REAL 99% who are actually out there working and trying to make a living. Not these losers protesting..... I mean, have you seen what most of these people look like? No one would hire them let alone the 1%. They all want something for nothing.
What is it about these greedy people who think that because someone who made sacrifices while trying to get a business going by eating rice and beans, working out of their garage and driving a piece of junk vehicle that once they become successful that they owe the 100 people who now work for the person who did all the sacrificing the same wages as the owner him/herself makes??!! Those are the greedy ones! They want to be hired assembling plastic widgets and make 6 figures immediately.
Those who support those protestors should realize that the protestors should be camping out in front of the White House or their elected representatives because our corrupt government is responsible for the mess this country is in.
Well, how does Wall Street manipulate the market? They couldn't do diddly without the complicit politicans who give them a pass...Look to the Federal Reserve and the banking practices of the last sixty years for a large part of the problem. Look at Europe right now, they are going down the toilet because of interest.
We are following the EU path, only thing propping us up is the dollar as reserve currency. Get rid of that and buddy, we are screwed. This whole thing is global in scope and the international banks ( Federal Reserve in the big fat middle) are the ones bancrupting nations. Get rid of the central banks, get rid of the bailouts of those banks, done on the backs of the taxpayers (note that we would not be in our present financial straits had those banks and corporations been allowed to go bancrupt) and I guarantee you'll see positive change, globally.
We are being controlled by complicit politicans who allow and encourage the criminality of the banksters. There is no accountability, look to Corzine's recent criminality (Corzine the good friend of Obama) and the missing 600 million and the clawback rule which will enable the creditors to go after those folks who got out BEFORE the SHTF.
I really want the OWS and the Teaparty to get together and go after these SOBs. I think it can happen, I want a major populist movement that specifically goes after those SOBs.
selfmade
No one is protesting capitalism. No one is protesting innovation. No one is protesting ambition. No one is protesting forward thinking. They are protesting an unfair system, a system in which the rules are changed to favor those with access to the political system. It's the "golden rule", man ..... the one that allows those with the gold to make the rules.
You probably also believe that we should give even more tax breaks to the wealthy so that they will "create jobs." Why would anyone believe that? Businesses hire employees to increase profits ..... not because they have some extra change in their pockets.
Have you noticed what happens when a large company announces the building of a new factory or other large facility and promising jobs? State and local governments enter into a competition by offering huge tax breaks and other enticements. When the factory is built and schools become over-crowded and municipal facilities inadequate for the increased population who pays ...... the locals, right?
Can you explain why the non-productive hedge fund operators, people who make in many cases $millions, deserve to be taxed at a maximum rate of 15% - the capital gains rate? There is no reason other than a payback for political contributions why these people should pay a rate that is less than half of what they would pay as a normal, high-income tax payer. The 99%ers do not believe it is fair and neither do I.
Why do you believe that those who hold the US economy hostage to their wishes to the detriment of the rest of the population as "patriots"? I think you should re-think your definition of "patriot."
Peasants, you all will be. The rich we're betting against you, and they won.
I am part of the shrinking middle class and just had to give my newer car to someone who needed it worse than me. I am now driving my '87 pickup truck.
What are all you billionaires doing to help others?
I am not a billionaire but saw that Bill Gates gave a large part of his fortune to a trust for children in underdeveloped countrires, Sandy weil gave Cornell money to build a medical school.
Yes, he is still hoarding billions but what are YOU doing to help your out of work neighbor before their home is lost and they and their children are living in the street?
I don't know that there is any easy solutions to the unemployment problem. I am out of work myself and am finding out things are tough in the job market and have gone back to school. I am just saying scapegoating capitalism is not the answer. From watching politicians track record for managing anything, I feel Socialism would be worse.
@Democracy
Nice try to demonize the rich. The rich donate more a year than you or your entire family have made in centuries. Your just like the rest, always wanting something for nothing like you are entitled to it because you are less privaledged. Get out there, work hard, and earn that new pickup truck.
Billionaires are bigger philanthropists than you could ever dream to be
You "had to" give your car away? LOL
Warren Buffett started a consortium of million/billionaires who pledged to donate the vast majority of their wealth after they die.
Buffett is planning on giving away his entire estate to charity. He feels his children should have to make it on their own.
Billionaires such as Buffett and Gates are making so much more of a difference to disadvantaged people than I ever could, even though I donate and volunteer.
It's time to stop painting all rich people as greedy misers.
Gates and Buffett are not indicative of all billionaires and the companies they run.
Well, the one I volunteer for the most is our local humane society.
We've reduced the adoptable cat euthanasia rate from 70% to nearly 0%. We worked with the dog warden to stop their program where dogs were euthanized after 3 days - the dog warden now has the resources to keep most dogs until they are adopted.
Every animal we adopt out is vaccinated and spayed or neutered, all for less than $100.
We vaccinate feral cat colonies, thus reducing and nearly eliminating rabies in both the cat community as well as local wildlife, and we spay or neuter the animals, reducing cat overpopulation.
We are the legal authority for investigating claims of animal abuse and neglect, even though we are a non-governmental, not-for-profit agency.
We work with the legislature to draft laws to protect domesticated and wild animals.
We've gotten at least 20 people help with hoarding/OCD issues in the last 3 or so years.
We have programs to target young people abusing animals, getting them help so they don't turn into adult domestic abusers.
Bill Gates made his billions by stealing software (CP/M) from Digital Research back in the 80's. He was a common crook.
Ranman,
You are absolutely correct. They ARE NOT indicative of the majority of the rich, they should be the example.
As I stated below, it's NOT that they made money, or are successful, very few feel that way, it's the WAY the money is made.
The entitlement culture of investing is killing capitalism. Investors cry about 'socialism' taking their money. Where does the investor's reward money come from?
Do they create 'new money'? Yes, it is called inflation.
Do they redistribute money? Yes, it is called 'creating a market'.
Do they earn their money? No, they take a share of the future earners of real workers.
They are not giving their money away - it was never their money. They are giving away the future earnings of real workers.
Investing is an entitlement program to redistribute money from those that do the REAL work of society to those that do not.
Democracy n action,
Is it the responsibility of the "Billionaires" to help the poor? Google George Soros and see if you can't find an address for him. He is worth Billions. That might be an answer to your problem.
The article speaks about the wealthy people being clueless on why the Occupiers are upset. Wow, revelation, both the Rich and the Occupiers are clueless!
I am repeatng this because comment 1 got collapsed.
I would like OWS to tell me what is the point where the protests stop? What is the end game?
Also I would like OWS to tell me where is the line between Corporate Greed and Capitalism. Does a company or entrepreneur have a right to make a profit? What is the limit you propose?
@Lar-345817 -- Are you running your business to provide the best value to your customers? Is your labor (your's and your worker's) a resource to provide the best value to your customers?
Are you running your business to provide the most profit by providing the least possible value to your customers? Is your labor a 'cost' to be manipulated to create the most profit?
It is not about profits. It is about how those profits are made. Do you work for your profits through capitalism - providing best value to your customers? Or do you earn your profits through entitlement - provide as little value as possible to your customers?
The argument is about how our economy actually operates - capitalism or entitlement.
The frustration voiced by OWS will stop when people no longer feel cheated by the products and services available to them.
"It's time to stop painting all rich people as greedy misers."
And it's also time to stop painting all OWS protesters and supporters as:
scum, dirtballs, fornicators, homeless, lazy, drunks, drug addicts, etc.
The laziest of all are the people who would benefit the most from contributing and assist in guiding a movement like OWS but insist on spending their time attached to Facebook or Twitter and getting their news from biased MSM, Rush Limbaugh, and the lies coming from Congress and Wall Street.
Me: unemployed for a year, married for almost 16, father of 2 children pulling straight A's in school who are role models for their friends, and a 4.0 student in accounting after going back to school when I lost my job.
I support the OWS movement and am alarmed by the state of the economy, the stratification of wealth, and the unwillingness of the elected leaders of this country to do anything beneficial for the vast majority of the country while making sure an obscene amount of money keeps flowing to the military machine to run security for the most favored corporate interests.
I am disappointed that the stewards of justice chose to allow corporations the ability to purchase winners of elections, many times through hedging their bets by "supporting" both candidates.
My disappointment isn't limited to just the "justice" meted by our government. All branches and most elected officials have let down their constituents with impunity.
For the "love it or leave it" crowd. Yeah, it's that easy. Besides, I choose to stay and do what I can to help mold or change the direction of the country in whatever way I can. Like a true American is supposed to do.
And that's why I support the OWS movement, although I think at this point it should turn into a mass march from Wall Street and become an OD.C. movement. Elections are in a year, make candidates between now and then know they will be held accountable, make our voices heard outside the Capitol, outside the White House.
The obliviousness cuts both ways. The OWS crowd has no idea where the funding came from to make their I-Phones, I pads, Starbucks, $400 designer sleeping bags possible. How does fresh food get delivered to your grocery store? How do life saving drugs get to your pharmacy? Where does the electricity and natural gas come from to keep the lights on and our homes warm? Individuals save money. Companies invest it in new plants, new trucks, new stores, new drugs, new technology. Wall Street is the clearing house where these investments are securitized and sold to investors around the world. Our large, liquid, and dynamic capital structure is a huge competitive advantage for the US. One of the few we have left that has not been exported. Yes, these people make a lot of money. They can also lose a lot of money ( Paulson has lost billions on gold this year. The government is not going to bail him or his investors out).
I don't particularly care for big banks, but I do love the convenience of my on line bill pay and the fact there is a bank branch in every town. I don't like Wall Street,but We have retirement and college funds in index funds with the big mutual fund companies. I don't actively trade or speculate, I save and invest.
OWS appears to be a group of pampered and unproductive people that don't even know what they are mad about. I see a lot of hate, jealousy and envy. I do not see anyone proposing a solution
They (the rich) don't HAVE to do anything for others; and neither do YOU. It's called freedom. You don't get to decide the behavior of others because they are "rich". Grow up.
You are not getting it......
A large part of the anger is the fact that bank officers knowingly packaged poor performing mortgages into securities that were then given AAA ratings and sold to investors. Some banks even added insult to injury by then buying credit swap derivatives on those same securities, essentially betting that they would go sour, and making even more money. The American taxpayer ended up bailing these same banks out when everything went south. Where are the Federal investigations? Where are the arrests? Where are the court trials? That is a large part of the anger.
Now, consider this anger and let's add some more insult to the injuries..... The Supreme ?court decides corporations are people too, and they can give unlimited funds to political action committees, as well as bundle funds from employee "contributions". They don't do this out of their love for democracy; no, they do it to gain influence with lawmakers in the hope that legislation will be written to benefit their profit making potential, while consequently, it squeezes the middle class more, such as renewing Bush era cuts while at the same time reducing the aid states receive for colleges and universities.
I could go on and on, but if you really have a hard time understanding the anger, nothing I say will persuade you otherwise. You are either part of the 1% or you are a strong supporter. There is nothing wrong with making profit in America; as long as you are doing it fairly and not stepping on the backs of Americans while doing it. We don't hate big business, we dislike the corruption that is allowed to take place and having our politicians bought out.
"Now that he's no longer working for PIMCO, McCulley is a bit more free to speak his mind. And he says the only way to jumpstart the U.S. economy is for the federal government to get behind a serious program to encourage consumer debt forgiveness and principal reductions on mortgages by banks. "
"McCulley noted that mortgage firms Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have been propped up by about $169 billion in federal aid since they were rescued by the government in 2008, yet there's a "a moral overtone" to the argument against reducing mortgage debt burdens for individual borrowers."
"Wall Street capitalism has given us a foul stench in our society," says McCulley.
Here’s the message Congress, loud and clear, finally a voice of common sense rises up in the middle of all the static.
The US economy is debt based, and 75% of the US consumers are underwater not only in their mortgages, but also their personal lines of credit, as in credit card debt as well as lines of credit attached to their mortgages.
Congress has seen fit to bail out the banks, and with them some of the highest paid in the US society, bankers debts were cleared by proxy.
It is time to go back through and clear out the paper debt the bankers have sold to the carpet bagging collections agencies, most of which are located outside of the United States by wiping the numbers off of the credit reporting agency data base.
The money is already gone, just as the bailed bankers money was already gone.
These foreign debt owners, who bought the debt at their own risk, and at pennies on the dollar of the actual debt, are now acting through US lawyers keeping the US consumers who cannot pay them under water and pushing them in to the Bankruptcy courts effectively shutting the US economies true recovery down for 7 to 10 more years.
In that the debt was purchased by foreign interest that have no stake in the recovery of the US economy, and every dime recovered by these foreign debt owners aside for the commission to their US lawyer lackeys is sent and spent in their foreign country, the clearing the debt would be their mistake for buying it, a very tough love move.
For everyone who lives in a world that feels that the overall health of not only the US economy, but also the rest of the worlds economy should be kept down because you managed to manage your money, kept a job, and made it through this melt down relatively unscathed, if this is not accomplished and very soon your home will continue to be worth 1/3 of its value, and you will eventually be living in a neighborhood were every other home is empty with a foreclosure sign in the front yard.
Bottom line: There is lots of blame to go around, but if you listen to Mr. McCulley he is telling everyone were the right road to end all of this misery is located, lets open up our ears and minds to what he is saying, now sooner than later.
Nerm_L
So if I run my company and produce an inferior product, but make money, OWS will protest that?
So if I am satisfied with my Wall Street firm or Bank, and they make money off of me, does that mean they are practicing greed or capitalism,
If I buy a car from a foreign company, because the US company makes an inferior product, does that mean the US Car company is a bad company?
So until OWS is satisfied with all products produced they will continue? Does that include foreign made products.
Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of what you said, but the practical application is ....well it's impractical.
I suspect the OWS protesters will have a long cold winter and many more to come.
Also why do they protest companies that don't pay their "fair share" of taxes. If the company operates within the IRC, why is it an issue for the company. Its an IRS issue. In fact I would question a company that didn't take advantage of the code to pay less taxes. That would be poor management.
If you want to read collapsed comments just click on the “Comment collapsed by the community” line to reopen, and close them again..
Who knows why these comments are arbitrarily being collapsed, I am just opening them and if I am not interested in the thoughts not reading them, whatever.
So the ultra rich have their heads up their a$$es. Put that in a memo labeled, "Sh!t I already know."
@Lar-345817 -- Does our 'system' operate by capitalism or entitlement? That is the key question. It is not about being 'rich' or making profits. The frustration is about how the money is made.
Capitalism operates by providing the best value to its customers and making a profit from that activity.
Entitlement operates by providing the least possible value to its customers in order to make the maximum profit.
The frustration is not about Steve Jobs - he provided value for his profits. How many customers feel cheated by Apple? The frustration is about Jon Corzine or Bernie Madoff - they provided the least possible value to their customers and reaped maximum profits. How many people feel cheated by their actions? How many Corzines and Madoffs are feeding on the system that we do not know about? Who has more influence over our 'system' the Jobs type of people or the Madoff type of people?
The contrast between the TEA Party and OWS is the difference between capitalism and entitlement. The TEA Party chooses to impose its will on government to provide less value to society in order to maximize profit in the economy - that is the entitlement culture. The OWS wants the 'system' to provide better value for the profits that are being made - that is capitalism.
Ray In Jax,
I agree about the greed and fee structure on the packaging of Sub-Prime Mortgages into cess pools for resale. But----- Who do you think is the responsible party here?
If it is in fact called a pool of Sub-Prime Mortgages, doesn't that set off the alarm? If in fact it is rated AAA but it is called a pool of Sub-Prime, does that set off a alarm? If the Federal Government tells the banks to lower the bar so every poor person can own a home, does that set off alarm bells? If Barney Frank is Chairperson of the House Finance Services Committee whom is tasked with Oversight on the FDIC, Federal Reserve, Banking Sector, Insurance Sector, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, SEC, and a few other completely joined entities, does that set off an alarm?
Barney is past, the pools of Ca-Ca passed through the doors of the SEC with the blessing of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac after the rating agencies rated the Ca-Ca AAA which happened after the banks were given the green light to offer No-Doc loans which meant you could sign for any damn thing you wanted. Where do you suppose we should point the finger? If you don't want Ants to spoil your Picnic, don't throw Sugar on the Picnic Blanket. Are you seeing the picture here. When opportunity presents itself, greed has no boundaries. It is a COMPLETE FAILURE OF OVERSIGHT.
Personally, I'm a '55'er, in addition to being a 99%er. I believe we should go back to the 1955 tax rates with no exemptions for profits from hedge funds and derivatives.
Not getting it is the correct term. Politicians are not getting it, because they fail to see that continued bail outs are not the answer. Main street is not getting it because they fail to see why it was important to keep mass corporate failures from happening during the financial melt down. OWS isn't getting it because they are overcome with anger and are not trying to become part of a solution, only to criticize the problem.
The bailouts were necessary because too many collapses would have put the world economy into a bottomless pit. The end result would have been a global war for resources, which would have probably done more damage to our ecosystem than 100 years of pollution. Tens of millions in this country could have found themselves in a lot worse shape as the dominoes would have continued to fall. The health of our economy is not based on manufacturing, retail, or the service industries. It is not based on financial trading. In short our economy is based on our mood. Perception of how our country is faring in the world! When we feel good about our situations, our economy booms. People spend money and drive the rest of the pieces of our economy to greater heights. Increased revenues at companies mean better returns for investors on both wall street and main street. Increased demand means more jobs and eventually higher wages as unemployment numbers tumble and competition for workers increases. People feel better and more secure as they know that a new job is out there for them if something doesn't work out where they are, in short they feel free to live as they wish. All of this was wiped away during the melt down and could have gone much farther south. If the perception had swung to the point that we felt threatened,(beyond what we already do) then the next natural step would have been to lash out against a world that is no more to blame than ourselves, and believe me we are to blame. We have abandoned any thoughts of being prudent or frugal. We have degenerated into a "Now Society" were we seek to gratify our every whim immediately. No one wishes to wait or save for something, and many are angry because they have too. Financial corporations in search of profits catered to that greed by extending credit at ridiculous rates and the flock, blinded by lust for new shiny material objects agreed without hesitation to take them up on the offer. 30% interest isn't supposed to be the norm, but a deterrent for over extending your credit which many ignore. People then get mad when they find they are in trouble, not at whom they should be, but at the credit companies that allow them the opportunity to borrow without collateral.
The government has been perpetuating this cycle for to long with extremely low interest rates. What in essence they have done is to take a number of seemingly insignificant corrections that should have happened, and turned them into one mega correction that took everyone down at the same time. People then blame the last ones standing. The ones that were able to weather the tough times better because of better reserves. They never stop to think how those reserves were accumulated or why the credit defaults didn't seem to hit them as hard. They are only looking for a scapegoat to blame their self inflicted pain upon. I am not defending the rich, because they, like everyone else are people too. They were just fortunate enough to have a bigger buffer to absorb the blow.
The answer to this problem is not in greater regulation, not in greater government investments, and not in screaming in the halls of power. The answer, which I might add is slowly taking hold, lies in the homes and hands of every person. The answer is in changing the way we all do business. Saving more, spending less, decreasing our personal debts, picking ourselves up and dusting off our pride and returning to moving forward. Those that don't understand that the key to our greatness has always been our people and our desire to overcome any obstacle are the ones that will be hardest hit, cry the longest, and stand in line with their hands out looking for someone else to save them. It is that mentality that has taken us down, and that is the real problem right now.
Here are a few reasons: http://www.thisiswhyweoccupy.org
Nerm I agree with the concept of what you said
Corzine and Madoff, Mozilo from Countrywide, etc. There are crooks out there. But to paint the entire financial services industry with the same brush, sounds like a form of racism, they are not all bad. For example, B of A. They were "coerced by the US Govt to acquire Countrywide and have had substantial losses as a result. They were "bailed out" by the government, but nobody talks about the 5% in interest and dividends they paid for that bail out.
Or JPMorgan. Jamie Dimon seems to me a competent and trust worthy guy. They were bailed out too, but he didn't want the money, he was forced to take it and pay the interest.
As to the value of product, it easy for you and I to say that companies should be more focused on value than making a profit. But reality is profit prevails. In a world as competitive as ours, corporate managers are under enormous profit pressure.
Many of the responses in this thread show exactly the kind of cluelessness that the article discusses.
I am an Occupy Wall Street supporter.
1. I am not a bum. I have a Ph.D.
2. I am not a slacker that doesn't know how to work hard. At times, I worked over 100 hours a week to earn my doctorate. Since completing my doctoral degree, I have worked 50 to 60 hours a week CONTINUOUSLY for 10 years. My list of publications in refereed journals goes on for two typewritten pages (single spaced).
3. I am not looking for a handout. Because the grant money in my field is so bad (fewer than 10% of grant applications are being funded in my field) I have known for the last 9 months that my postdoc job will likely end soon. I've been looking for another job for 9 months, with no success. I've sent out countless job applications both in and outside of my field. If something doesn't change soon I will be unemployed.
Am I angry? You bet I am. What am I angry about? I'm angry because nearly every move that congress makes these days helps the very wealthy at the expense of everyone else. I am not against the idea of a smart businessman getting rich. What I want, however, is for that rich businessman to understand that he didn't get his money *SOLELY* through his own hard work. The company you own (or manage) probably uses thousands of delivery trucks that destroy roads that MY tax dollars paid for. Court system, police departments, EVERYTHING that is paid for by tax dollars you used very heavily to make your money. I want the wealthy to pay much higher taxes.
Get rich. Just don't be greedy.
I am a hard working, highly educated person. I don't want a handout. I want a JOB.
Junicon
You see the likely near future it seems. The question is are you preparing for it? Are you able to prepare for it? Even though many are educated and are considered intelligent, it doesn't give them wisdom. We tend to forget that by the time you see the storm clouds overhead, it is far too late to prepare for the storm.
The frustration you feel is shared by many, some of which you would not suspect have a reason to be frustrated. It is what you learn and how you move forward that will determine how bad the future could be.
@Lar-345817 -- Does your business have a 'mission' statement. Look at it carefully. Can it be summed up like this:
"Our company produces the best product in order to pay our shareholders and make a profit."
Contrast that with a 'mission' statement that can be summed up like this:
"Our company will provide the best value to our customers. The customer is always right. Our company will not cheat our customers, ever."
Obviously both types of companies are required to make a profit. The first measures success by the profits - the company only fails if it does not make a profit. That is an example of the 'culture of entitlement'. It's purpose is to serve itself first - profits measure success.
The second measures success by customers - the company can still fail even if it makes a profit. That is an example of the 'culture of capitalism'. The purpose is to serve its customers first - success in that endeavor provides the profits.
The frustration is not about profits - that is an expected result of conducting business. The frustration is about the role of business in society and the business mindset to measure success and create profits.
I support the OWS movement. I am retired after working all my life. I am a Vietnam vet with a purple heart and three bronze stars to show for it. I was a USAF intelligence analyst for 10 years and, in that capacity, briefed Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon at one time or another. I have a BS that I paid for out of my own pocket while in the Air Force. My wife also supports the OWS movement. She is a PhD researcher. She also paid for all her own college with no loans --- and did all the post-doctoral garbage jobs at minimum wage pay to get where she is now --- a tenured full professor where she gets to work 70-80-hour weeks. Our family income is in the top 10%. Our family net worth is in the top 7%.
But I have seen the largest transfer of wealth and influence from the middle class to the 1% in the history of the world in just the past 40-45 years. It is astonishing that this has happened and I see no real way, short of revolution, that it will do anything except get worse.
I disagree with your opinion, but I thank you greatly for your service to our country, Chris.
People like you are why we are free to express our own opinions.
Cassivella, you took the words out of my mouth. Chris, you are a great American, thank you for keeping us free. But it is interesting you point towards revoloution as the only way. That is drastic and something we both don't ho[e for. I am all for freedom of speech and i can't disagree with OWS that there are problems. I posted this on another story.
Both sides should give. The Republicans need to increase revenues on Capital gains, which are transactional and controllable, and estate taxes, which pertain to the very wealthy. Earned income should not be taxed at a higher rate.
The Democrats need to give on spending. Cut welfare, medicaid, unemployment insurance, etc. Dump national healthcare.
The medical profession needs to cut charges. Universities need to lower tuition and spend endowments.
We need trade restrictions with ALL countries, not just China, get rid of NAFTA. Close the borders and get rid of the aliens that take jobs and cost money.
Don't pay benefits to people who can take lower paying jobs, but give them a supplement if they take lower paying jobs.
And for G-d's sake, stop letting politics take precedent over common sense.
Let everyone suffer. The person most to blame for this mess is the person in your mirror. We all need to take blame. Stop blaming others.
My prblem with OWS is that they blame others and don't seem willing to take ANY Blame. I am a middle class guy and I bear blame.
woo hoo! Over here. Hey THIS Supreme Court, corrupt, biased and vile as they are did not decide Corporations are people. That happened waaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy back after the GREAT DEPRESSION when regulations were slapped on banks and businesses to make them behave. They did, however, decide that corporations can donate as much money as they want to anyone in office or running for office and have no obligation to disclose it.
Just as a side note, I want to point out that we seem to always be bailing someone out after a Republican president is in office. Remember the great god Ronald Reagan and the Savings and Loans?
On another note, Barack Obama as president of the United States has the power to realign the Supreme Court in a heartbeat. All he has to do is decide the number of judges in appropriate and either let some of them go or add as many as he chooses. There is a president for it. It has been done more than once.
Wall Street Bankers:
You have got to remember you are dealing with people who think the bank is at fault when the consumer doesn't pay back a loan.
Yes, I know, it's like dealing with 4 year olds raised by leftists.
Can you imagine going to a restaurant, not paying for your meal, then saying it was the restaurants fault for serving you before you paid.
That they shouldn't have served you based on your promise to pay them.
It's no different in Greece. Instead of blaming the Gov't that spent the money, they blame the banks that lent the Gov't the money.
This is what it must be like to live in an insane asylum. All logic is thrown out the window, and an emotion like "anger" is substituted.
Look, a mere dog can be angry. They can be jealous of another dog with a bone. They will then try to steal (or should I say redistribute) that other dog's bone.
The people who are clueless are the Occupiers. Like all usefull idiots in Socialist or Communist revolutions, they are angry and jealous. They think: if we could just take what they have and divide it up, we would all be better off.
But then in no time they look around and realize: we are poorer AFTER we seized industry, business, and personal property.
But then it's too late. They ate the Golden Goose, and now there are no more Golden Eggs.
If the top 20% of earners were gone, the other 80% would have to pay in excess of 100% of their income in taxes.
Did they forget about that?
And how are countries that have no "rich"? Would you care to live there?
I'm just going to be brutally honest. The American consumer was the cause of the financial collapse. They were the ones who didn't pay back their loans. There isn't a single bank that would have had the slightest trouble had the consumers paid what they owed.
And all the emotional whining is just denial. It's just a way to find someone else to blame in order to avoid looking in the mirror.
These so-called captains of finance have essentially joined the occupiers because they’re clueless too.
Now, everybody is clueless.
Very good perspective. I see four parties with responsibility for the financial collapse; Consumers, Banks, Rating Agencies, and the Government. When you think of responsibility from a logical perspective the government will never take responsibility that policies that lowered FNMA and FHLMC lending standards and incented the behavior that caused the meltdown. Consumers won't take responsibility for thier actions and no politician would ever go on record to blame a voter. Rating agencies did an inadequate job analyzing the structure of what they rated, but no one knows who they are. Banks made mistakes as well the other three have just done a better job deflecting blame.
As far as bailouts go if you look at the facts you would see they were driven for a few institutions crucial to the financial system. If we had let some of those institutions fail and let the damage happen to the system we would be discussing why we didn't protect the system when we could. If things for the banks were as bad as everyone thinks TARP for the banks would not have ended up with the government recovering the funds so well in such a short period of time. Look at AIG and the auto industry that still have not recovered from TARP funding and still need dramtic events to recover.
I like the fact that a bunch of these protesters have iPhones in their dirty little hands. An overpriced foreign manufactured product produced by a mega corporation making hundreds of billions a year.
I don't know about you, but I love my iPhone, corporate greed and child labor included!
JB from WV -
Good points.
I put 1/2 the blame on consumers,
and then divide the other half like you did with Gov't, Ratings Agencies, and Banks sharing the blame for that half.
There are three really dirty secrets:
1. Many banks were forced to take bailouts they didn't want or need. The reason is so investors wouldn't know who to dump. It would have been pretty easy for investors to know who was a bad risk if the Gov't had just bailed out the few really bad ones.
2. The banks have paid back nearly all of the bailouts. So they were really just loans, not bailouts.
3. The consumers are the real ones who got the bailouts through default and bankruptcy. Consumers are not paying back their loans at a rate anywhere near what the banks are. Consumers have skipped out on over a trillion in loans.
You are spot on in your assesment that the politicians and media will not dare even mention this basic fact.
So we are left with an imaginary Wall Street boogeyman.
Death to all trolls
"To put it bluntly, many on Wall Street still see the events leading up to the financial crisis as a case of banks having legitimately sold something - whether it be mortgages or securities backed by those loans - that someone wanted to buy."
========
.....If these were such good investments, why did the banks sell them off? And yes, someone wanted to buy them, thanks to a AAA rating by scum bags like S&P (who, by the way, give ratings on companies that are also their clients who pay for their services, difficult to see how a conflict of interest can't arise there).
It is very easy to understand why banks don't keep mortgages on the books. The most significant reason is that because a mortgage loan has such a long maturity it typically can not be funded correctly on a bank's balance sheet without subjecting the bank to interest rate risk. Contrary to public opinion overnight funding at .25% is not a viable funding source for a bank except for floating rate assets, certainly not for a 30yr mortgage.
Rating agencies blew it but the models they use to analyze would have never been able capture the domino effect by so much collapsing and how it all interacted. I agree on how there can't be conflict of interest with the rating agencies. Not certain how the agencies are regulated to make sure their results are impartial.
I'm not particularly overly impressed with your degree or all the single space papers you have published. That isn't the real world for most of us.
My son has also not been able to find a job where someone else will hire him so he has gone into business for himself earning enough to support his family according to the standards he was raised with. We aren't rich and we aren't poor, but closer to the poor end than the middle. You should have pulled your head out of your papers long enough over the years to become acquainted with the real world long enough to see what else is out there and to find out what other talents and ablilities you have. I often wonder if the most highly educated folks are actually the most intelligent folks.
Well lah di dah, churchmouse3, aren't you specia? Newsflash, bub: academia is as cutthroat as any boardroom. Decades ago I spent 5 years as an adjunct at the local institution of higher education, later moving on to the not-for-profit community health arena. They are both very much "the real world" - same backstabbers, same brown-nosers, same assortment as any factory floor or retail office. And btw, intelligence and higher education quite frequently go hand-in-hand. I'm happy for your son and hope his self-employment works out, though he should know that 4 out of 5 new businesses fail within five years, mostly due to insufficient capital.
I don't care how much the rich make a year. What I care about is the banks destroyed the real estate market making my home impossible to sell. Then they crashed the economy which cost me a six figure income.
Two years later I still cannot get closure with Bank of America, who bought my title for pennies on the dollar when TB&W failed. How can I begin recovering from what they did to me until they finish taking my home? They took possession of my home last May, but won't finish the paperwork.
They sent me papers last week that were back dated to Christmas of last year. I couldn't sign them because I would be in breach of contract the second I did. They hold all the cards and still won't conduct themselves with a grain of integrity.
Lar-345817#2.34: OWS is not anti capitalistic. OWS does not want anything given to it. OWS does demand not to be subjected to manipulated markets and products for the purpose of profit yields. OWS does demand an absence of the exploitation of those with less resources by those with more for the gain of profit. OWS does demand the government shall govern for the good and betterment of ALL the people rather than a select and perceived elite. OWS demands the cessation of money flowing from select groups into and through elected officials whose purpose is the representation of, and for, the betterment of all the people. These among others are the purpose of OWS. Regards
MJ
Do a little research and you'll see how Roosevelt burned himself trying that one!
THE OCCUPY HEDGE FUND
If OWS pooled their collective pennies, they could put together an "occupy hedge fund", and instead of shaking their collective fists as Wall Street, they could actually make a nickel or two and use their new "occupy capital" to change American institutions for the better.
Plan B, of course, is to yell and scream, and piss on the public sidewalk.
Hmmmmm one article says that the captains of commerce were paying some $800,000. to paint the OWS as hoodlums and another story says they just don't get why OWSers are so upset. Lol.......
Sorry, Floretta, you missed the boat completely. I'm not talking boardroom, retail floor, or factory. And he's not going to fail due to capital investment, because there is none. I'm talking about sweat labor, starting from scratch. There are jobs, not as lucrative now as they used to be, but still in existence, painting contractors, landscapers, office cleaners, house cleaners, and many, many jobs doing other work that people want to hire out. You get a job, you get another job, word of mouth, you get a few more jobs, you get a contract with a small business for more work, pretty soon you have a contract with maybe the local school corporation for your services, hire a helper or two and you are on your way. You keep the business to the size you can manage and afford, maybe dishing out for some major equipment, but nothing you can't pay off with in the year or two without going backrupt. You build a business by the sweat of your brow and the breaking of your back, and you're not too proud to go home dirty and tired. You have set backs, you go forward, and life goes on, no whining that no one will hire you, no one to stab you in the back, just your own life to live and your own family to support. You aren't going to buy yachts or drive a new car every year, but it's a good, honest life, and eventually you make enough money to put some into investments and send your kid to college. I know because my husband and I did it when he lost a couple jobs in recessions years ago, decided not to rely on anyone else for employment. We have friends who have gone the same route, and these days I look around and notice young people doing it here and there. So lah di dah yourself, sweet cheeks. We are people who aren't afraid to work hard and dirty, and we have a good life. It might not be what we started out dreaming, but we don't wait for someone to do something for us. We do it ourselves. Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans. And by the way, my son went to college. He could be sitting around whining for a job in a county with such high unemployment that msnbc.com spent a year doing stories on us. But he chose not to. He just got busy doing what he needed to do to support his family.
Here is just one of the many things that frustrate people - and leads to an OWS protest.
Merchants paid $62.75 billion to the banks for plastic card transactions in 2010. That is a 'sales tax' imposed by banks for using debit and credit cards. Last year the cost was $0.44 to for a debit card transaction. Even if you do not use a card to make purchases - the prices you pay are higher to pay the banks.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304584004576416064098735924.html
http://consumerist.com/2011/11/walmart-mcdonalds-ceos-swipe-fee-reform-may-end-up-hurting-our-bottom-line.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/29/swipe-fees-cap-federal-reserve-wall-street_n_887193.html
The banks 'market' spiel to merchants is that the use of cards result in consumers spending more when they buy with credit.
Stop using credit cards and debit cards. Starve the beast - kill the greed.
Peasants, you all will be. The rich we're betting against you, and they won.
Here is a forehead bruiser that REALLY describes how 'banks' operate and how the financial crisis came about.
http://books.google.com/books?id=QIKfTVrhNfMC&lpg=PR1&dq=The%20financial%20crisis%20inquiry%20report&pg=PA52#v=onepage&q&f=false
If you can make it through this without bruising your forehead - you will still be nauseous.
The big banks deserve a heckuva lot more protesters on their steps than they have seen so far ...
Another example of the influence of big money. We are all familiar with the complaints about subsidizing alternative energy. The argument goes that alternative energy cannot compete - it's too expensive - we cannot afford it.
Take a look at how the the Global Nuclear Energy Partnership - GNEP - has been used for political favoritism. If you are not familiar with GNEP - that is an initiative begun in 2005-2006 to reprocess spent nuclear fuel to recover plutonium for commercial use.
Lindsey Graham and Jim DeMint from South Carolina are big supporters of GNEP and DOE. Here is why -
http://schotlinepress.wordpress.com/2007/08/24/doe-awards-sc-universities-300000-for-energy-research/
And some background on GNEP -
http://www.neimagazine.com/story.asp?storyCode=2034203
Savannah River is also located in South Carolina. Savannah River is a DOE facility to produce weapon grade nuclear materials and employs around 15,000. The new commercial facility is in nearby Barnwell. So far, about $2 billion has been spent on the Barnwell facility. Other alternative energies complete with plutonium enrichment. Yucca Mountain also competes with plutonium enrichment.
Big money, big projects, big handouts. A political message that tells us on Main Street to be 'fiscally responsible' by those playing political games to benefit themselves is difficult to accept.
Why should Main Street bear the burden of subsidizing people like Lindsey Graham and Jim DeMint? Is being 'successful' simply a measure of using clever deceit to take the money earned by Main Street?
How many on Main Street got bonuses last year? Wall Street handed out $20.8 billion in bonuses for 2010. That amount would be equivalent to giving every man, woman, and child in the US $60.
http://www.economist.com/node/18231330
Were those bonuses used to create jobs? Maybe - if you accept that consumption creates jobs. But then that would suggest that giving every man, woman, and child $60 would create jobs, too.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/01/11/news/economy/bank_bonuses/index.htm
Where did those bonuses come from? Weren't they generated by card swipe fees, service fees, processing fees, and - maybe - profits from gambling with someone else's money? If you have a 401k - if you used credit cards - if you have a bank loan - you are paying the Wall Street bonuses. Simple as that.
Banks should be working to provide a valuable service to society. Isn't that the function of business - to provide an environment where society can prosper? Unfortunately, in a service economy, it appears that society only provides an environment for banks to prosper.
Feel cheated yet?
What's not to understand? They want income (and everything else) equality.
Just like the people in the former USSR wanted before the start of WWI. Well they got exactly what they asked for. We know how that worked out. Apparently OWS gang does not.
OH, I see what you are doing to help others, sticking your heads in the sand and pretending like nothing and no one matters except the number in your bank account.
That is not what life is about and you will die hoarding that what others need to survive.
The problems are not all the fault of higher income folks. Middle class jobs are becoming obsolete anyway through technology, foreign competition and automation so middle class have things way harder than previous generations but I feel scapegoating those with some wealth won't solve things. Even if they succeed in stealing it all, there are not enough to save the country.
I am not advocating theft, just generosity and common sense and an eye that can identify human suffering and take some action to help others in small significant ways. It has been my experience that the more I give, the more that comes back to me to give more.
The russian revolution was originally about establishing a decentralized democracy that would have put us to shame. The word "soviet" means "committee" and every little town, factory and military unit had one to control their own lives after the feb 1917 revolution. Very decentralized. Then lenin came back and highjacked the whole thing with the oct 1917 revolution that everyone remembers. There was a quick counter-revolution from the imperialists' "white army" which lost. After that, all the purges were against "soviets" and their ideas of decentralized democracy.
DemocracyInAction9999999999: WTF identify human suffering. Go to Africa and you will see human suffering, go down to South America YOU will see human Suffering. Visit any US State all you will see if a bunch of babies who bought, over extended, took bad loans, or invested there money in a sure thing and lost.
Life:
1. IS never fair.
2. No such thing as a Sure thing.
3. The Grass always looks greener on the other side.
If you gave $5 US Dollar to a person in Africa, they would have thought they won the Lottery. That is Poverty and Human Suffering.
Why should they care about misdirected anger from greedy slackers?
If the "protestors" don't want to be angry maybe they should change their lives instead of expecting others to change it for them.
To bad we have unfair trade and sent all the jobs to countrys with cheap labor and little regulations.We cant compete with these labor slaves.
I can only surmise that the presidents agenda is to destroy the usa and make us all poor.Then tell us we need a new system of government because the old one didnt work.
The only way the president stays in power is if he declares martial law.The house and senate need term limits,theyre not lords or kings.
Actually HS, you don't get it. The OWS movement has nothing to do with socialism. The movement wants to shift the Wall Street paradigm. Just in case you're an outsider or just uninformed, let me explain. A small group on Wall Street have been busy lately raising money for themselves and really not adding squat to the value of the American economy, way of life, lifestyle, or whatever you want to call it. They call themselves Hedge Fund Managers and other names. They've created worthless financial products, like credit default swaps. and sold them to investors. In the old days, Wall Street was responsible to raising capital for building railroads, manufacturing companies inventing things like electric light bulbs, and making TV's. Well, the invention of the light bulb, TV's, and railroads made America what it was yesterday. We now live in a Post-America era. While everyone agrees that Wall Street capitalism of the 20th century made America great, a select group of Americans (the OWS people) see that only 1% of the population now benefits from today's capitalism and America's Golden Age is behind them. Pity, but true. Instead of growing America, Wall Street is now tearing down America for the other 99%. This is witnessed by college students graduating with huge tuition debt and high unemployment, middle class families over their head in debt with mortgages on toxic assets, 20%+ of America living on 99 weeks of unemployment checks or already fallen off the rolls. The OWS people are demonstrating to make politicians aware that something must be done to shift the paradigm and stop the Fall of America. As long as America continues to decline, the Occupy people will increase in number.
T. Bill...I agree with you in part about many, but not all, of the Wall Street types making money in what I call virtual markets, like the credit default swaps. However, I also agree with what Don said in 3.2 above.
Life just is. The concept of 'fairness' doesn't apply to life. It doesn't owe anyone anything. The only guaranteed birthright is death.
I understand this because when I graduated with a geophysics degree in 1985, it was worthless. After working my way through college for years, instead of going into debt (which is a personal choice of how to handle college costs), I had exactly one guarantee: I had a degree.
Comment 8.2 below list OWS reforms wanted, but they should be in DC protesting. Not Wall Street.
Totally agree. It is not about being envious of the rich - I too have an annuity with mutual funds and have worked hard all my life. I feel fortunate to have a job at 59. But all of you who say leave Wall Street alone because this is a capitalistic society and they made theirs is forgetting one big fact - US taxpayers bailed those some capitalists out three years ago when they were about to go under. Yet, they have done nothing to repay the US taxpayer for this generosity and instead have continued on as if it was their right to get bailed out when they messed up and almost took everyone else down with them. These big banks owe taxpayers - and I am not just talking about paying back the money much of which has been paid back - they owe us for their very livelihood and continued 1% style of living - we made it possible for them to keep their jobs while many of us lost ours. So yes I am mad at their ignorance. They are not true capitalists - they took a bailout from the government; so do not begin to lecture me about capitalism - these guys would not know true capitalism if it hit them over the head. Small business owners know alot more about capitalism than these guys every will and we did not bail them out. You bet I am mad - mad at their arrogance and ignorance. The US taxpayer saved these guys and we are being treated like dirt by these guys. Personally, I am beginning to wish we had just let them fail. And I predict that if Wall Street and Washington DC do not get the message - Main Street will erupt. I am not for violence but desperate people do desperate things. There are a lot more have nots than haves - Wall Street should listen and learn. Try a little humility for the people who literally saved your you know what. And they could say thank you to the US taxpayer - something they never did either.
Democracy in action,
You can help a person to get on his feet, but it is much better to help them to learn how to do it for themselves. People learn best from their mistakes, not from bailouts. A businessman that fails in his first attempt, seldom makes the same business mistake again. A child who burns his hand is forever wary about flames and hot surfaces. We should all extend a hand to help, but we all must be responsible when choosing what help to give. You could hand a homeless person 50k and say you helped only to find that person homeless again next month or you can educate that person so that they may stand up for themselves, which is the greater charity? Which is greater good deed? The power to heal our current crisis is not in Washington or on Wall street. The power as always is in the hands of the people as our forefathers foresaw. The cure may be ill tasting and painful, but it will be effective. Government can help buffer some of the blow, but really not much at all. Anger is mostly counter productive unless it is focused where it truly belongs and that is internally for creating the situations in which we now stand.
The Occupy movement will eventually occupy many parts of Washington. They just haven't gotten there yet. They will also occupy voting booths one year from now.
You're right about fairness in life, it's not spontaneous. However, it's society's responsibility to create a level playing field where it can. The scales of justice held by a blind judge is just one example. Fairness benefits society as a whole, even though it may seem unfair to one. So, OWS wants to alert society that something is rotten in America. Society can make changes to bring about fairness for the widest slice of the population. Eliminating manipulation of financial markets by a few would be a good start, but more needs to done.
A degree in Geophysics is hardly worthless. The quanitative physical methods you learned can not only be used in geological applications, but also in understanding the hydrological cyle of our planet and how it applies to other planets. Science is a good thing. It spawns inventions and innovation.
If you have to ask what OWS wants, you don't have any idea what's been going on in this country for the last 20 years.
Credit default swaps are hardly worthless. They are a way for companies to reduce risk in the case of a default.
As much as people want to blame banks for the economic problem, it was not them who defaulted. The customers defaulted.
Those defaults, all those people who did not keep their obligations to pay money back to people who loaned it to then are the cause.
If someone is selling shady products are offering to loan you money, you do not have to take it. You are allowed to use common sense and logic to say, this might be too much of a risk for me.
hey Leatherneck918
Ever been to Missouri? No one in a country this wealthy should live like that while some people have so much they own 30K sq ft home and two yachts.
The world is full of people who work hard their whole life and never get a break. You people that delude yourself that these people who are falling behind are lazy and shiftless are yourself only a catastrophic illness away from living in the street.
You just don't get it. The cards are stacked against anyone playing by the rules. In the past the rich have kept their contempt a secret and pretended to do the right thing, they don't even bother any longer. They spit on you and you're too dumb to see it. You're dinosaurs. That high-minded ideal you pretend to live by(apple pie, motherhood and baseball), died 20 years ago. There is nothing to see here any longer MOVE ON.
A rich man, a middle class man and poor man sit down to a table with a plate of 20 cookies of which the rich man immediately grabs 19. Cupping his hand near his mouth he whispers to the middle class man, "you'd better watch out that poor guy is trying to get half your cookie."
Get it now?
Sorry @Howard, but you're quite wrong. While there was not actually anything wrong with credit default swaps were used. And unless they are used in that unethical and illegal way, they are indeed worthless.
What happened was that banks created bundles of mortgages that they gave a high credit worthiness to. Ooops, so the fox is grading the chickers? Then they sold the bundles to Fannie Mae. Well that was okay, but you could make a lot more money if you slipped in some subprime mortgages and then just lied about the grade of the mortgages. And you could make even more money by putting in even more subprime mortgages and lying lieing about it. Eventually it was all subprime mortgages in the bundles and the rating was meaningless and mortgages that had a 100% chance of failing were included and the rating was still AAA.
They knew that eventually the bubble would burst. Knew it for certain. So credit default swaps were created by the same people so they could bet against the very mortgages that they sold to Fannie Mae. They created a great deal --- they made a huge profit either way. In fact, they actually made more money when the mortgages blew up! The problem was that the people selling the mortgages to Fannie Mae knew it was both illegal and doomed. And the hedge fund managers who sold the credit default swaps knew --- it would have taken a complete idiot to not know it was so obvious. And the question remains, should Fannie Mae had known? Short of mortgages starting to go into foreclosure, did Fannie Mae have any way of knowing what was going on? I think most people right now say, "Probably" but believe also thaat they either didn't have the ability or the power to change it.
These people realy having you believing this crap don't they? You really believe that credit default swaps, when being used for a legal and ethical purpose are "hardly worthless"? Then you should invest all your savings in them! A fool and his money .....
brendan-4
@Democracy
Nice try to demonize the rich. The rich donate more a year than you or your entire family have made in centuries. Your just like the rest, always wanting something for nothing like you are entitled to it because you are less privaledged. Get out there, work hard, and earn that new pickup truck.
Billionaires are bigger philanthropists than you could ever dream to be
You "had to" give your car away? LOL
you are a fool to think that they give there money away cuse they are nice. BSSSSSS
they give there money away so they can get a tax brake and are not charged more taxes cuse they have more on hand at the end of the year fool
350 Million people here. 1% would be about 3,500,000. Gates and Buffett =2. so. 000057% of the 1% are forgiven for accumulating excess wealth.
H3ll, I could find more good people than that in the maximum security prison population.
Okay Howard, we should build a monument to the Credit Default Swap and celebrate it once a year, sorta like the 4th of July.
Just like the invention of the PC and iPhone, CDS's have brought good things for all of us. Yeah right!! Let's face it. These CDS's back-fired on banks, investor's and Wall Street. It's time to regulate Wall Street. It's for the safety of investors, banks, and frankly the rest of the world. Wall Street has proven that it can't be trusted to regulate itself. Government has a role here to make sure new financial products pass the smell test.
Credit Default swaps are a product, they in and of themselves have nothing at all to do with mortgages.
The fact that companies like AIG sold credit default swaps to banks who bundled mortgages of inferior grades with high ratings is a different matter. that was poor judgement. I was counseling people in 2002 to be wary of inflated home values. I had clients tell me I was crazy and people never lost money in real estate.
It didn't take a genius to figure out what would happen. People need to take responsibility for their poor decisions as do companies.
From a speech by FDR:
Necessitous men are not free men. People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.
Its all just another application of maslow. _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
Ask not what your billionaire can do for you. Ask what you can do for your billionaire.
I don't see the problem. If they don't have bread to eat then they should eat cake.
And the last person who said that, lost their head.
Maybe Wallstreet should take that to heart.
a
There's one fact that American capitalism guarantees: the more you have, the less you worked for it. The arrogance of the job-destroying "job creators" is becoming truly absurd; they're mocking you, America.
Here's another fact: if you are not in the top 1%, right now, you will never get there. Never. If you're posting here, you are not part of the 1%. If you are posting here in support of the 1%, you are truly a fool.
I assume you must be sending most of your money to underdeveloped countries to help the folks that are in much worse conditions since you don't believe in money. How do you know that folks with money did not work for it ?
Rusty
You spew a lot of garbage. How do you know who is in the top 1%? I am very close and intend to be there next year. I employ Americans, pay their health care, give them a bonus at the end of the year, and they like their job. You need to get off your rear end and try to take part in the American Dream before you rot away with your anger for others who have done better than you. For all of those who think that you can live off of others hard work I will quote from the top Democrat of the House of Representatives of the United States of America. "go to hell". I feel that that is an appropriate quote for all of the OWS crowd. The Tea Party did not deserve that type of comment from Nancy Pelosi, who defends the OWS crowd.
Sean , some folks may have inherited money, but from what I have seen most worked hard and saved. Making money on investments is not as easy as you think. The stock indexes have lost 20% over the last 12 years, so the rich getting richer thing is blown out of proportion.
I am not rich but I worked steady for 46 years straight after college, always lived below my means and put the maximum allowed in my 401K. My investments have not earned any more than what I could have earned in government bonds. I believe some people actually do work for what they have.
Wealth comes from getting your money to work harder than your body. Otherwise your productivity is limited to what one body can do-- even when expanded by machinery which still requires some brains.
Sean,
Pretty accurate picture.
@Don,
You are wrongly assuming that the 1% lost considerable money in the stock market when the individual investor was losing about 32%. Wrongo Bucko. The 1% basically uses insider information to make bucks even when in a bear market. They can readily move money between funds and between stocks and bonds before the little ticker on your computer even registers the changes that triggered it. A good example is the late Steven Jobs who was in trouble with the SEC constantly during his two tenures with Apple and was actually fired for stock manipulation at one time. Using money essentially stolen from small investors, he built the company with the "largest market cap in the world" even though the breakup value of the company was far less than his net personal wealth. (In other words, Apple stock is nearly worthless.) That's the sort of stock that the 1% avoids because they understand the process.
And then Jobs needed a liver transplant and applied the exact same rationale and mechanism. He registered (illegally in at least 14 cases) as a resident in 47 states in which he had never live. He rented an unfurnished apartment as a resident address in each of 45 states. Then, magically, he zipped past over 3,000 dying people and went to the top of the transplant list in Tennessee. A liver normally is transplanted into 2-4 people, depending on the number of lobes and blood vessels. The transplanted lobe grows back to full size in 3 months to a year. The transplant protocols say that Jobs is not eligible for a transplant unless there are NO other eligible recipients because he had a terminal disease. Jobs got an ENTIRE liver, dooming 1-3 potential recipients to death in order to extend his life for about a year. That's how the 1% thinks and works.
Chris...the Jobs story is anecdotal. I have a neighbor that isn't rich that is one of the most selfish people I ever met.
Hey, try looking up some of the charities Andrew Carnegie donated to...
Rusty
Your name says it all! You will forever be impotent if you continue to measure the worth of a man by his bank book. Reality can be cold and heartless, but reality can be changed, for each person can alter their own realities. The world is full of possibilities, I'll grant you that some are not as attractive as others, but there is always a way to improve yourself and your status.
Chris-749391-
Great post. Keep posting.
@hs --- all stories are anecdotal. That's what anecdotal means. LOL All I was doing was relating a story to illustrate a point that money is secondary.
That was after he and his right hand man CRUSHED the union with Pinkerton agents. Yes he did help build a lot of libraries, but one has to wonder was it the goodness of his heart or the fear of the afterlife that motivated it.
Sean: What's your beef with rich people inheriting wealth? When rich people hire/pay a gardener, housekeeper, maid, financial planner etc.. they are employing people / creating jobs. They also spend their inherited wealth on goods and luxury items cars, jewelry, clothes, dinners at restaurants all these purchases help to prop up local economies.. and that keeps jobs. The fact that they inherited their money and can keep it growing is good for my community. You're implying they're evil.
Wow, if I didn't know any better, I would think that a number of these posts qualify as examples of "cognitive dissonance", that is, if someone has made a lot of money, they must be crooks or they must NOT have earned it.
I am probably at the low end of the top 1%. I pay my taxes (all of them), have never benefited from insider trading and I made my money the old fashioned way - I earned it.
I am guilty of a few sins:
I am guilty of being blessed with great parents and a good mind; I am guilty of picking a great career (public accounting); I am guilty of being hard working and self-motivated; I am guilty of having a lot of common sense, taking out a fixed rate mortgage, not borrowing more than I could afford and living within my means; I am guilty of marrying a great woman.
Oh yeah, I am guilty of measuring my happiness and success against my own standards and norms, rather against what others may have accumulated.
As I read most of the posts here, I can hear that Eagles song "Get Over It" playing in my mind.
I agree........some people think if you are successful, you won life's lottery or screwed somebody else over. I have great parents who taught me responsibility, self-sufficiency, the value of hard work and owning your own outcome. I've always had a job, always worked harder (produced more) than my peers, make good (responsible) choices, saved as much as possible for my retirement (event when I was in my 20's), managed my career to stay employed (new skills, responsibilities etc.), didn't marry until I was in my 30's.
My degree is in performing arts.........I had to learn a few hard lessons early on!
D Daddy Laggs
If true then I would imagine you to be about 1% of the 1%.
What they're basically saying is like a bank robber saying "the law didn't try to stop me, so I get to keep it!", or the con artist saying, "the old lady was too dumb to know better, so I get keep it!" They're clueless, and heartless, and they'll still be wondering about it when they take that long walk up a short scaffold.
And how is that different from the "protestors" saying "I know I didn't earn it, but I'm jealous that others have it, they should give it to me!"?
Despite the small-minded fantasy that all wealthy people are simply born rich the reality is that most earned it, or at least had family who earned it..... you think that is more like like a "robber" or "con-artist" than someone standing in a park screaming for handouts?
OWS protestors want federal banking and market regulators “to promote a market environment that is worthy of the public’s trust and characterized by transparency and integrity,” (Reference: “Vision,” SEC 2010 Performance and Accountability Report).
Recent reports (The Conference Board, Lehman Brothers' examiner, etc.) cite a failure of corporate oversight as a leading contributor to the financial crisis.
OWS protestors want
- Public disclosure that makes it so painful on Officers and Directors that they take corporate oversight seriously – Corporate Oversight worthy of the public’s trust
- Investor Protection worthy of the Public’s Trust
- Fraud deterrence worthy of the public’s trust
- Executive Compensation worthy of the public’s trust
“The SEC and Citigroup are trying to bully Federal Judge Jed Rakoff into rubber-stamping a sweetheart settlement for a massive fraud. That's bad enough, but the SEC has also locked arms with Citigroup to make sure as little information as possible is disclosed to the Judge and the public about the settlement and Citigroup's fraudulent deal.”
“That will ensure that there's no oversight or accountability of either Citigroup or the SEC, which appears to be selling out to another big, powerful, well-connected Wall Street bank.”
“The settlement is so pathetically small and the disclosure is so minimal that it actually rewards securities fraud and sends the message to Wall Street that crime pays.”
Any settlement between the SEC and Citigroup must include provisions that officers and directors get serious about corporate oversight to protect against repeat violations.
Finally, Potential losses on Bank of America’s massive $75 trillion book of risky derivative contracts has just been dumped onto the FDIC by the Federal Reserve. In another crisis, the FDIC does not have the resources to absorb potentially huge losses from Bank of America’s derivative bets. Furthermore, without massive government guarantees, there would be no buyer for a failed Bank of America given the open ended risks involved. To prevent complete panic by the public from a looming failure of Bank of America, the Fed, FDIC and US Treasury would again have to provide virtually unlimited financial support, courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer.
It's always the parasites on Medicare and Social Security who accuse ME of wanting handouts. I'm young; I get absolutely nothing from them. They take money out of my pocket, and somehow I'M the socialist. I they take MY money, and then use it to accuse ME of demanding handouts.
Toasty...you're right on Medicare for most, but the money they get from SS is, theoretically, money they paid into SS, so it's their money they're getting back...theoretically. (Sarcasm intentional.)
get_a_life
Your post does a good job of showing the protesters point of view. However, I'll borrow a comment from Ronald Reagan, "Trust, but Verify!" No matter what regulations are imposed, what laws are passed, or which criminals are brought to justice, it will always lie on the individual to make the decision. Each decision we make should be given the proper weight and consideration for its magnitude. If you are talking about your life savings and how you will live in retirement, then you damn sure better do your homework before making a decision. We live in an information age where you can find almost any information on the WWW. It requires time and effort but is not difficult. In my opinion this is much better than trying to run up costs by inflicting more and more regulations that business will find ways around.
Ken: sorry, snookums, you may want that republican "you're on your own, good luck with that" care, but we're at long last joining every other developed nation in trying to get away from that. you right wing reactionaries sure have selective memories about who did what to the American economy.
Right-wingers can't even remember George Bush. Notice how they never even mention him?
2001-2008 never even happened, as far as they're concerned. It all started under Obama.
BOTH parties have enabled the abuses of Wall Street with the worst single act of economic stupidity being the idiotic repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act ( I must strongly disagree with recent reports that we are more intelligent than our forefathers, we might have higher IQ's, but we fall far short on common sense ) passed by a Republican Congress, but signed off on by a Democrat President.
Don't get me wrong, Ken. I support Social Security and Medicare. I'm just sick of those crybabies calling ME a socialist and accusing ME of demanding a handout when THEY are the ones taking MY money.
And of course, the Occupy protestors are not clueless.
At least they really make the Tea Party look good.
yeah but don't forget:
OBOMBO, Pelosi, Reid, Frank, Dodd, Water, Wasserman and all the other millionaire
demo liberals who spew their liberal socialist agendas to help big unions, aarp, drug
companies, green [soylandra, Pelosi's brother in law], hollywood!!!!! i don't see them
giving a dime of their money!!!! fat michael moore, clooney, bill big mouth maher, fat
rosey, whoopie and all the other liberals. hypocrites! it's not just wall street which
supported OBOMBO and he gave millions in stimulus money as payback!!!!
wake up liberals!
Give it up, Sean; facts do nothing but confuse 'em.
Do you really think calling people names reinforces your point? Grow up...you're acting like a kid in elementary school.
Sean - "Who's not blaming them too?"
Um, in case you didn't notice the name of the protest isn't Occupy Washington... it is Ocuppy Wall Street.
Who do you think used America's taxpayer "stimulus" dollars to bail out Wall Street?... Here's a hint, it's the person who preaches class warfare and the "evilness" of Wall Street, and you fools swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.
Hey Sean.... why don't you look up who has controlled congress the most during the past 40 years.... you know.... the people that control the purse strings? Then again that wouldn't help paint the picture you're trying to paint.
Facts don't confuse them; they don't bother with them in the first place.
The anti-OWS Trolls are ready to pounce on this story without even reading it. The tagline is like a puppy to a rabid pitbull.
Well thank goodness you pounced first with your wonderfully meaningful analysis... of the tagline.
No one looks good in this economic mess. All we can do is help each other until we can figure out what went wrong. Capitalism, socialism, who cares? Let's get something that works and call it "Something that works".
That the problem here. You are right that nothing seems to work and the situation is way more complicated than these folks realize, The economic problems have many causes and blame to spread all around but nobody knows how to fix things. We may have already passed the point of no return.
Don...I think they do no how to fix things in the long run, but in our "I want it all and I want it now" mentality society, no one wants to go through the pain to set things right. And if a politician pushes the painful solutions, he/she commits political suicide.
"We may have already passed the point of no return." I fear you may be right.
"But he said the problem isn't with those who are successful, but rather our "tax codes and regulations."
It is quire obvious that Wall Street is not ready to admit their complicity in the housing collapse and economic situation this country finds itself in. The people quoted here don't want to admit that they bought and are stilling buying Congressional members and that they created exotic financial instruments to protect themselves and to generate more money. The fact that hedge fund managers have small staffs and due to their lobbying efforts have a lower tax rate is not discussed in this article. So yes they are right the tax codes are not just but where they say that regulations are too stiff, the reality is that during the Bush administration, the regulations were too lax. They call it free enterprise but it really was a license to steal from the public with no repercussions.
exactly.
Sigh, the finance guys don't get it. Sure, there is the issue of inequality but America is still a country where anyone can succeed (in the right economic conditions). The issue with the "Kings of Finance" is 2 fold: first, they destroyed our fricking economy (how do you do that?) and second, their business cannot be considered one with any social, technological or otherwise beneficial characteristics in-line with pillars of American greatness. Aside from "pooling capital" for investment in US companies their business mostly involves barely legal schemes for creating revenue from the inflation of assets or outright gambling; which often has ill-effects on the average American.
What cretins like John Paulson don't say when waxing magnanimously is that he colluded with Goldman Sachs to defraud companies for billions while creating a secondary market for BAD loans. A MARKET FOR BAD LOANS. Take all of these parasitic firms and remove them today and America will simply be a better place.
I had thought these "Captains of Finance" simply did not care. Worse is the fact that they consider themselves "humble businessmen" and think they are decent people, yet, somehow they don't understand. How can one break through the ignorance these people suffer from when ignorance is bliss? They don't want to know that their immoral business practices have hurt American citizens, because their conscience just might kick in. And since they insulate themselves from average Americans, they don't even need to think about it. No wonder why they have no clue.
They wouldn't need to hire people to tell them how the public feels if they actually spent any time with people in the middle class.
I am outraged that every time I buy food, gas, heating oil, see a doctor or buy medicine, someone becomes even richer off my everyday, necessary purchases. Someone who produces absolutely nothing, yet manages to funnel my hard-earned money to themselves. And does not put that money back into the economy. This is a recipe for financial disaster and has been going on for way too long. It is not sustainable. Americans are running out of money.
Say what you will about those on the bottom who get welfare and other benefits. At least, if nothing else, the benefits they receive is immediately placed back into the economy. On the other hand, the tax cuts for the rich generally do not go back into the economy. I know which group of Americans I'd rather see get free benefits from the government.
.
It's been said that if you're playing poker for more than 20 minutes, and you still haven't figured out who the patsy in the game is, you're the patsy.
Those of you who support the financial industry "captains" are the patsies. They're getting rich by working hard - working hard to figure out how to steal your lunch money, that is.
By groceries and make your own lunch then you don't have to worry about losing your lunch money... it's too much effort though isn't it?
The financial industry isn't buying the groceries - you are. The financial industry isn't making the lunch - you are. But guess who ends up eating well?
You're the patsy.
Don't blame the hedge fund owner for being happy and clueless. Blame congress for allowing this whole thing to go down. And next fall, please, act on that blame.
And remember it was not the "new" members of Congress that allowed the loopholes for hedge fund managers.
How often do you steal cars, Sean? The fact that most cars do not get stolen is thanks to rules against stealing cars and enough enforcement to make it a bad idea. Public shaming of car thieves doesn't really do the trick.
I agree that "new" is not necessarily better. I would start by not voting for anyone with a net worth of over 3 million dollars. Not the finest-toothed discriminant, but these guys like Cantor and Pelosi would be out. Leave guys like Rush Holt in.
@ Occupythegame. Don't you get it yet? You have to blame both Washington and Wall Street. The reason Congress fails to restrain abuses in the finance industry is that they're in the pockets of the finance industry. This applies to both Repubs and Dems. During Obama's last run for the Presidency, he received more money from the finance industry than any other candidate from either party. He then filled his cabinet with Wall Street insiders who hastened the recent meltdown. He appointed Jeffrey Immelt (CEO of consumer debt titan GE) as his chief financial adviser.
You can't get Washington to police Wall Street, because Wall Street bribes Washington not to. And you can't end the bribery, because no one in Congress really wants to overturn a system that they've learned how to succeed in. The normal, "legitimate" channels for change have been choked off. That's why people are in the streets. It's not because they're lazy, or because want to break the law for the hell of it. It's because they care about the soul and future of this country, and they've exhausted other strategies.
@John. Sure we can blame Wall Street, if that's the point of the exercise (and more to the point of this article). The truth is that if it wasn't Wall Street, supposing they were all above reproach, then it would be Big Health Care or Big Pharma or Big Workers' Unions or some other entity that benefits from congress decision who we would be blaming. Ultimately we need to change Washington so they don't end up in the pockets of anything with money.
"Wall Street capitalism has given us a foul stench in our society" The stench comes not from Wall Street per se, but from criminals abusing the system.
Also, it appears that Occupy is clueless about it's own anger... It is certainly clueless about peaceful civil disobedience. Anarchists and malcontents have the loudest voice in that group and that's not doing them any favors...
if it was capitalism, they wouldnt have gotten the bailouts. its easy to take what looks like big risks if you know there really arent any risks. Buy politicians is a very good insurance policy.
like I said, peanutgallerytheater, criminals abusing the system--including--perhaps especially--politicians...
Wall Street capitalism isn't what's giving off the stench, it's Wall Street and corporate CRONY Capitalism (along with some of those protesting it) !!
I think the OWS protestors have crossed the line in several locations, but I strongly support their right to PEACEFULLY protest, and I am delighted that some of the empty Wall Street suits finally get to see (and smell) that not everyone is delighted that they sucked so bad that their firms needed taxpayer funded bailouts and that in many cases they used those bailouts to pay themselves "bonuses" for their EPIC FAILURE !!
As I stated earlier, I will always support the United States of America and our Capitalist system, but Capitalism isn't selling out long term growth and stability for short term profit. Capitalism is not sucking so bad at your job that it requires a Federal bailout of your firm to keep it afloat !! Capitalism is not thinking that despite your EPIC FAILURE at your job you deserve a "contractually obligated" failure "bonus", which in many cases came out of those taxpayer funded bailouts !!! If a company is successful, then the sky's the limit on executive compensation, but if it has FAILED to the point it needs a taxpayer funded bailout, then it is absolute garbage to try and defend 7 figure executive "bonuses" !! Bonuses should be based on success, PERIOD !!
The Second Bill of Rights:
The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.
All of these rights spell security.
America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens.
For unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world.
Mark
We can't pay for Cheetos for the homeless.
Idealisim is counter productive, and "Happily Ever After" is a fairy tale.
All we can offer anyone is a real shot. We can't guarantee anything more.
Alas, we don't even do that.
Mark,
That was FDR's speech. Those "rights" are addressed in many of the world's constitutions. Most intelligent govts realize sooner or later that a healthy and secure citizenry was essential.
To have a "bottom layer" of hungry, frustrated, disenfranchised can quickly turn to desperate, angry, revolutionary citizenry, especially when that "bottom layer" begins to grow rapidly.
America needs to be careful.
Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. These are our rights. They have been in place for over 200 years. To require more than that is to be Greedy. Money does not buy happiness.
Selfmade, your ignorance is sad, really.
Let me lend a little insite to the situation. There are only a small number of protestors who view money as evil, it's GREED.
Paulson is a really good example of what I mean. He made Billions on the misfortune of others, and then can't understand why they hate him. He's greedy. It's NOT the fact that he made the money, it how.
Our Lawmakers in Washington are another, they vote on their own raises, after serving two or three terms, they receive full pay and medical for the rest of their worthless lives, so they don't have a clue as to what you and I have to do to try to live after we retire. These people, most of which never served in our military or put their lives on the line like the police or firefighters, or taught anything worthwhile to our children.
I would hazard a guess that you think those of us who lost our homes during the housing crisis, did it to ourselves. NOT that, in my wife's business for example, had a $25,000 bogus check dropped on it by a less than stand up client. We had payroll, business bills and our own bills relying on that money, I had to pay everything out of my pocket so that ALL of our employees didn't have to suffer through this. As a result, after two years of trying to make up the damage and not file bankruptcy, we lost our home. We also had the misfortune to have an offshoot of Ameeriquest as our mortgage holder, who, if you will remember, were investigated for fraud.
That is what these people are protesting. GREED, pure and simple. Those who are so far above the street as to not identify what the average middle class Americans are going through, and refuse to see there is a problem. They are expecting others to tighten their belts, but not them.
There are quite a few people who I respect, like Warren Buffet and Bill Gates, who finally saw the error of his ways and started giving considerable contributions to various aspects of our society. Including sending additional money to the tax man to show that they understand there is a problem with the tax code.
Military Man you hit the nail on the head.
Selfmade, your ignorance is sad, really.
Let me lend a little insite to the situation. There are only a small number of protestors who view money as evil, it's GREED.
Paulson is a really good example of what I mean. He made Billions on the misfortune of others, and then can't understand why they hate him. He's greedy. It's NOT the fact that he made the money, it how.
Our Lawmakers in Washington are another, they vote on their own raises, after serving two or three terms, they receive full pay and medical for the rest of their worthless lives, so they don't have a clue as to what you and I have to do to try to live after we retire.
I would hazard a guess that you think those of us who lost our homes during the housing crisis, did it to ourselves. NOT that, in my wife's business for example, had a $25,000 bogus check dropped on it by a less than stand up client. We had payroll, business bills and our own bills relying on that money, I had to pay everything out of my pocket so that ALL of our employees didn't have to suffer through this. As a result, after two years of trying to make up the damage and not file bankruptcy, we lost our home. We also had the misfortune to have an offshoot of Ameeriquest as our mortgage holder, who, if you will remember, were investigated for fraud.
That is what these people are protesting. GREED, pure and simple. Those who are so far above the street as to not identify what the average middle class Americans are going through, and refuse to see there is a problem. They are expecting others to tighten their belts, but not them.
Disregard this post, the format of this blog utility really sucks...I get an account validation every couple of times I try to post, and then end up posting twice, when it doesn't.
Well said, Military Man. We also have corporations and banks LEGALLY bribing Congressmen with campaign money to vote for laws that help them and hurt us. This effectively destroys our democracy because getting re-elected is all that matters to so many members of Congress. And to top it off, floor privileges make former Congressmen the perfect lobbyists for the corporations that were previously buying their votes. We have a corrupt system and something needs to change before this great country falls too far.
Military Man you hit the nail on the head.
Rationalized greed--plain and simple. And now these Masters of the Universe truly own the government. The recent Supreme Court decision only solidified their stranglehold. I would bet most OWS believe in the American Dream but they surely sense that something is terribly amiss with the proper regulation of Wall Street and Corporations. I'm all for fairly made profits and attainment of wealth but when the social and legal ramifictions of what has been taking place the last thirty years are looked at we are facing an oncoming societal instability that will not be pretty. Blaming the victims (the 99%'s) of the recent severe economic downturn will only exacerbate the growing anger.
Corporations do need to control costs to stay competitive globally else they go down the toilet anyway, so middle class jobs go away either way.
Some regulation of Wall street is important and I did not agree with the repeal of Glass Steagle, but I also feel some bad government regulations also contributed to the problems so regulation is not black and white.
You are absolutely right that something is amiss, but nobody seems to have any viable solutions. I don't think blaming capitalism is the answer. Probably the anger may get worse, but I don't see this actually solving anything.
where did john blame capitalism? in fact john defended it. I wish everyone would stop putting words in the mouth of those who oppose what has happened to America.
What those of us who support OWS and the need for financial reforms is a fair and just system.
that is it. it isnt rocket science. we want a govt that represents what is best for the people and what is best for corporations is NOT best for the rest of us. corporations have sold our jobs to the lowest bidder and that is the third world. Corporations are trying to make america a third world country. Many thinking americans are trying to stop the corporations from doing that
Campaign finance reform needs to happen first and foremost. I believe the rest will come much more easily once (if) that occurs. And OWS supporters aren't blaming capitalism, but corporations exerting so much influence over our lawmakers.
Duhh! Are you surprised these pigs at the trough don't understand what's going on out there. They believe they are priviledged and deserving...they are no different from the rich throughout history. It's called greed and arrogance! We descended from the naked ape who can't let go of the banana in the bottle even though it traps us and dooms us. Our challenge as humans is to rise above this greed factor...understand it's good to spread the wealth and have a robust middle class. Everyone benefits from this healthy wealth distribution...especially the wealthy. The alternative: a rich and poor society with no middle class resulting in social upheaval and instability. A "Let them eat cake!" attitude just results in an "Off with their heads response". The pacifist "Occupy Wall Street" movement over time will be replaced by a militant movement. Just look at our history...it is not one of peaceful transition...there were times when serious confrontation occurred between the wealthy and abused middle and poor classes. Our society corrected the wrongs and we survived...we are confronting a critical moment now.
Ron, you make some very interesting points. Too bad the OWS mob is not as articulate as you. Their message is too garbled to even be interpreted, and their behavior is more ape like than civilized.
A more coherent message would be simply this. Fire Them ALL. Use the power of the voting booth to kick every elected official out of office after just one term. Re-elect no one. Then there would be no deals to buy votes for re-election since there would be no re-election. This would do more to get money out of politics than anything I can think of. And when you bring in the newly elected, the first thing you do is abolish PAC's as well.
If such a movement could ever take hold, someone like Obama would not delay building an oil pipeline from Canada that would lower everyone's cost of energy, provide tens of thousands of high paying jobs, and raise the standard of living of the entire nation due to lower energy costs translating into more discretionary spending and therefore more demand and higher rates of employment. But instead, we have a man in the white house that for political reasons is delaying the pipeline until after the the 2012 elections so as not to alienate his radical environmental base. All environmentalism is not bad. But when you delay a program such as this pipeline when the technology is proven and when the jobs are needed now, and you delay the project for political reasons, then you end up hurting the very people that supported obama in his first election as well as the remainder of the nation as well.
Therefore, the movement needed is the movement ot oust all elected officials at every level of government after their first term in office. We would then hopefully get leadership instead of constant campaigning, get sound economic policy instead of pandering, and get investment of taxpayer monies into sound projects instead of the Solyndra's of today that rewards campaign fund organizers at the expense of the taxpayer.
If OWS could embrace a clear message such as Fire Them All, I would be a strong supporter. But as it is, to me, OWS currently represents a muddled message, fascist tactics, and disdane for the Constitution and the rights of others. I reject all of it soundly.
You are so right with the fire them all message...the mantra and bumper sticker should be "Anybody But An Incumbent". It's our one hope to retake our democracy back without a violent end game. It would reshuffle the deck and perhaps put some people in there who will truly change campaign finance laws and other steps to take the money out of politics. The statement that "money is the mother's milk of politics" needs to be replaced with "great ideas and leaders solve social and economic problems".
Somehow "Anybody But An Incumbent" doesn't quite - how shall I put it? - sing? Too awkward and a bit long for a bumper sticker. Maybe advocating for term limits along the lines of "One and Done"? or "2 4 6 8 - That's Enough" lol.
Look at Mexico to see how well it works to have a small number of very very very rich people and lots and lots and lots of very poor.
Wall Street only does what our laws allow them to do. Take your bitch to Washington DC, not Wall Street or Main Street.
yabecoo,
The problem is described in quite a few posts, the LAWS and LAWMAKERs are a big part of the issue. Rules and regulations have been relaxed or eliminated (2002-03) that allowed for federal monitoring of the way money is being traded. The SEC is a toothless old Lion now...insider trading is the norm and not the line you didn't cross, it was in the 90s.
Therefore, Wallstreet and Mainstreet need to SELF monitor, and they won't do that, so someone needs to.
The self monitoring is true capitalism. if we'd stop bailing out bad decisions, justice would be done. Capitalism works INSPITE of the bad people.
Only problem with your argument is that Wall Street owns DC...the right culprit is being fingered.
I agree with you Ron, but who's argument are you referring?
I think he was referring to Yabecoo's comment, and I agree. The main problem, in my opinion, is that our laws allow Wall Street to exert such influence over Congress. Protesting one is protesting the other, they are part of the same problem.
The Occupiers are liberal Democrat anarchists stealing taxpayer money! Occupiers have done what al Qaeda couldn't do! Destroy a US city! Occupiers are nothing more than domestic terrorists!
Wow, Chi K, You astound me.
The Occupiers are EVERYONE who sees there is a porblem with the way our country is being run and who is taking advantage of it.
I would be willing to bet if you went down there and asked, you would find a large number of moderates and even some conservatives who aren't on the "greed is good" band-wagon, like you aparently are.
OWS wasnt that effective. They didnt do anything that cant be fixed with a pressure washer.
you go down and talk to them and every other word is I deserve. you deserve what? Why do they want a socialist agenda? I don't, they do not represent me in anyway. I have worked my job and at times 2 others in retail to make ends meet. Get off your ass and work please don't tell me there are no jobs. Maybe if they cleaned up and pulled up their pants showed up on time they would be employed. We all have to start at the bottom.
no we don't all start at the bottom. I'll bet every elected official in Washington is a millionaire, and their children will not start at the bottom !!
@ WOW-3372799 Consider yourself lucky to be able to have one job and get two others. Other's are not as lucky. My husband has been out of work for 3 months now. He cannot get those "Retail jobs" because he was a Manager with a large construction firm and made really good money. They take one look at him and tell him he is over qualified and that they know he will walk away once the economy rights itself. When he explains that all he wants to do is work and as long as he has the ability to move forward with the company, he has no intention of jumping ship, they call him a liar. I have a very good job and make a pretty decent wage, we just need him to find an "average" job, but they take one look at his qualifications and slam the door in his face. Unemployment is hovering at 14% here. the jobs that are out there are minimum wage entry level positions and they are not going to 42 year old men who have been in the business world for a while.
Yeah Boy, you've got your propagandized lesson down pat! "Democrat Anarchists", all looking for "something for nothing". You know damned well their not busting their asses managing their investment portfolios like the "good folks" who pay the people who feed your head. Yeah, I know, "nobody" fills your head. You just keep yourself well informed by "fair and balanced" people and your smart enough to block out the rest of the universe.
The reason they are oblivious is because we let them be.
Once one of them is seized by the mob and beaten to death I suspect they will pay attention.
Sad, but true.
Perhaps OWS should begin bringing a guillotine with them on their marches?
It might inspire the one percent to recall the fate of the French elite?
When empires crumble, heads often role!
Banks do not lend existing money. Banks create money when we borrow. It is called checkbook money. It does not really exist. You see, when you buy a home, banks says you can write a check for a million. You take the check to the seller. You have the home. Seller takes the check back to the bank. Bank moves "promise to pay" from your account, to his account. But the bank does not really pay a dime to anybody. They know that you will keep writing a check and never really ask for the money. Yet they demand that you pay interest. It is slavery. Google for "HOW DO BANKS CREATE MONEY" to understand the extent of the robbery.
www.tradingstocks.net/html/banks_create_money.html
Frank
You are non sequitor, and a conspiracy nut hawking a website.
You are as bad as they.
God Demut is an idiot.