Some retailers pull back from Black Friday arms race

Michael Nagle / Getty Images file

Shoppers look for bargains at Toys "R" Us last year. The big-box chain is opening at 9 p.m. on Thanksgiving this year.

Call it Black Friday fatigue.

With stores racing to open ever earlier on Thanksgiving (Wal-Mart’s doors will open at 10 p.m.!), a backlash is growing, with some retailers and analysts questioning the madness.

“The lunacy of opening at 12 midnight or even earlier on Thanksgiving evening shows that this whole Black Friday thing has run out of legs,” said IDC Retail Insights program director Greg Girard. “Black Friday is a race to the bottom, and it’s just become another ad avenue.”

Other analysts think this year's extended hours are meant to distract shoppers from a lack of exciting inventory.

“If you build it, they will come,” said NPD Group chief industry analyst Marshal Cohen, “but they won’t come in the dead of night. To me, you’re not going to sell more product just because you’re open more hours. It’s more of a smoke screen than it is a solution to the issue.”

This year, some stores are choosing not to take extreme measures to lure in bargain-hungry customers as they kick off a season that is expected to bring in about $465.6 billion in sales, a modest 2.8 percent increase over last year.

Sears, for one, has decided to pass on the trend for midnight openings set by big-box retailers including Best Buy, Kohls and Target. Toys 'R' Us is opening at 9 p.m. Thanksgiving night, an hour ahead of Wal-Mart.

Last year, Sears chose to keep its doors open on Thanksgiving from 7 a.m. until noon, with the idea that shoppers would come in early to rack up a few deals and then head home to their families for a midday meal.

But while the company did have good numbers that day, “The customer feedback was very clear,” said Sears spokesman Tom Aiello. “The customers liked the deals, but they didn’t like the idea of Thanksgiving shorted as a holiday.”

So the chain will revert to its original plan to open at 4 a.m. on Friday. “I think there’s a group of customers that don’t aspire to get up in the middle of the night,” Aiello said.

Retail chain JC Penneyalso decided to stick with a 4 a.m. opening time this year so employees can spend Thanksgiving with friends and family, according to a company spokesman.

Employees at Target and Best Buy have launched petition drives on the website change.org protesting the early openings. “A midnight opening robs the hourly and in-store salary workers of time off with their families on Thanksgiving Day,” wrote petition creator Anthony Hardwick, who identifies himself as a Target employee.

Some local retailers are still undecided on their Black Friday hours and will make last-minute decisions, according to Cohen.

Others are resisting the bonanza that is Black Friday altogether—or at least, they engage in more subtlety. Seattle-based retail chain Nordstrom has avoided opening its doors on Thanksgiving throughout the company’s history and in recent years has posted signs in its stores that read, “One holiday at a time.”

Nordstrom waits until the morning of Black Friday to unveil its Christmas decorations, though it will open doors early that morning in some locations.

“It’s not as in your face,” said Forrester vice president and senior analyst Sucharita Mulpuru, “but there’s a reason that Thanksgiving weekend that people work longer hours and [the stores] pull out all the stops as far as offering sales and promotions—because that’s the nature of that weekend.”

Analyst Greg Girard of IDC said Black Friday is virtually absent from the websites of brand-oriented stores like Gap, Nordstrom and Lord & Taylor.

"And they’re doing something much more surgical in that they’re moving towards direct communications, like text messaging to consumers," he said. "They’re getting to consumers with whom they have a longer lifetime relationship."

Nordstrom, like many higher-end stores, doesn’t rely as heavily on Black Friday to make or break its sales year. Black Friday “is among our most high volume days. But it isn’t our largest sales day of the year, unlike many retailers,” said Nordstrom spokesman Colin Johnson.

Do you plan to shop Black Friday?

With some major chains opening the doors on Thanksgiving for "Black Friday" sales, retail employees are beginning to publicly complain about sales creeping into their Thanksgiving holiday. KNSD's Bob Hansen reports.

 

Results with 583 short comments
Total of 80,791 votes - click on the "Display Comments" bar below to sort comments

8.8%
Yes, I will be out before dawn.
7,133 votes
17.8%
Yes, but no rush.
14,414 votes
73.3%
No.
59,244 votes
Display Comments:
No.

I wouldn't be caught dead doing that. Online shopping rules.

  • 94 votes
 - 12:28 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

Everyone should sleep in on Black Friday then go for a walk with friends and family.

  • 136 votes
 - 12:37 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

I don't feel like taking the risk of being trampled to death for the sake of consumerism.

  • 106 votes
 - 12:40 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

There will be more sales before Christmas, why join the madhouse on Black Friday?

  • 70 votes
 - 12:48 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

There is nothing worth standing in line all morning for.

  • 76 votes
 - Amy411
 - 12:55 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

I have worked for big retalers on Black Friday before. I will not be the reason these poor folks have to get up at 0-hark hundred....

  • 70 votes
 - 12:55 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

I don't like crowds, and I do most of my shopping on-line. Christmas decor should not appear BEFORE Thanksgiving.

  • 79 votes
 - 12:59 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

Don't shop at all that Friday. Christmas shouldn't be a bloated orgy of consumption.

  • 88 votes
 - 1:00 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
Yes, I will be out before dawn.

I was there when Wal-Mart did the first one years ago and every one since. We plan to be out at Best Buy at midnight again this year.

  • 5 votes
 - 1:00 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

I have been picking up gift cards and toys throughout the year, I will be finished shopping before Thanksgiving.

  • 34 votes
 - 1:04 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

I think the thought that some retailers are open on Thanksgiving is deplorable.

  • 82 votes
 - 1:11 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

When I did Christmas shopping, I was always finished by Novembe 1. I no longer have little ones to buy for, and adults don't need it.

  • 17 votes
 - 1:24 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

Amazon makes it easy. No lines. ;)

  • 36 votes
 - 1:27 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

Nope not shopping because my store will be open from 10pm thanksgiving til 10pm friday so i'm working 9pm til 5am. It really is BS.

  • 36 votes
 - 1:37 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

Dear corporations; here's your reality check: no employees, no customers.

  • 48 votes
 - 1:38 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

I have seen the damage this can do, people are hurt or even killed, NO thanks.

  • 32 votes
 - 1:42 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

I'll shop on Friday morning after 9:00am if I want too. I avoid companies that open to early.

  • 12 votes
 - louisrz
 - 1:47 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

I won't go within a mile of the craziness if I can help it!!

  • 29 votes
 - 1:50 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

It is HIGHLY stupid to wake up in the middle of the night to shop. Stop and enjoy your family for Thanksgiving. It is ONE day a year. Geez!

  • 63 votes
 - 1:52 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

I need nothing bad enough to fight through unpleasant crowds. I will be spending time with family all day Friday. No shopping at all.

  • 42 votes
 - 1:53 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

I run in the other direction.

  • 29 votes
 - 1:53 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

Christmas has become too commercialized so we have decided to spend less and only give 3 gifts (a need, a want, and a spiritual gift).

  • 59 votes
 - 1:54 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

Why would I want to deal with the crowds?

  • 17 votes
 - 1:56 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011
No.

I cannot stand the mad dash toward wanton consumption. There is more to life than a pile of material possessions!

  • 55 votes
 - dmze
 - 1:59 pm EST on Fri Nov 18, 2011

Discuss this post

Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3 ... 13

The American consumer should Blacklist on Black Friday all goods not made in America. That means we wouldn't shop at all but it would send a message.

  • 46 votes
#1 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:22 PM EST

Couldn't agree more. I've seen most of the black Friday ads online. Nothing but a lot of foreign made electronics, toys, clothing, house wears, and what ever else. Some people seem to just go nuts, over all of this foreign crap, and think they are getting a good deal. All I can say to these people is, have fun creating more jobs overseas. They evidently think that we don't need any more jobs, here in the US. The part that I find strange is, they are blaming congress and the president for the lack of jobs in the US.

  • 19 votes
#1.1 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:14 PM EST

American jobs depend on imports and exports and trade. This is not the 1950's.

  • 7 votes
#1.2 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:22 PM EST

"American jobs depend on imports and exports and trade. This is not the 1950's."

Have you checked our trade imbalance?

We don't export much and the items we do export are mostly huge ticket items like Airliners, fighter jets and earth moving equipment (mostly built by union workers btw). We've lost 40,000 factories in the last decade.

No, it's not the 50s. In the 50s, we could look forward to a rising standard of living.

Global Economy = Global Standard of Living.

Our standard of living is not competitive in a Global Economy.

  • 22 votes
#1.3 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:51 PM EST

We don't export much? We are the #1 manufacturer in the world. Sure there is a trade imbalance, we are the richest nation on earth, so we can afford to buy more than anyone else.

These sound-byte answers are as idiotic as they are ignorant.

  • 10 votes
#1.4 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:04 PM EST

Please, if you do go shopping, use black Friday to support your local small businesses. It may be hard to buy "Made in the USA", but you can buy and have the power to let one more American keep their job.

  • 27 votes
#1.5 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:26 PM EST

There is plenty of time to shop--Now Thanksgiving is a lesser Holiday than Black Friday. There is no price one can put on spending the Holiday with Family and friends--Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.

  • 19 votes
#1.6 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:47 PM EST

Great idea Chaz! As we slowly descend into civil war, it's all about the American consumer. No middle class, no digging us out of this mess. We can't buy what we don't make. The future is coming and it doesn't look pretty.

Yet, we can group together and make our voices heard above the screaming of corporations. Buy local as best we can. Support our local businesses and those who provide local products. The money does come back to our communities.

Have a happy holiday season!

With any effort, we can make a difference!

  • 13 votes
#1.7 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:55 PM EST

Boycotting stores that employ fellow Americans is STUPID. How many more jobs do you want to have eliminated.

It would be a good idea if many of you on this board took the time to research the financial health of some of these companies. You can start with Sears and then move on to Pennys. Do you really want me to start listing all the retail stores that have gone belly up the past couple years?

Please people with this noble attitude these days. Stop and think before you insert foot.

  • 5 votes
#1.8 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:57 PM EST

I have never understood this, and as a result have never gone shopping on this day. Don't see any need to change that either. Christmas isn't about "stuff" to me anyway, so I guess I don't fit the mainstream. I also love Thanksgiving..the holiday we can all just get together and hang out. Why put a deadline on that to go shopping? U.S. consumerism at its worst.

  • 17 votes
#1.9 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:59 PM EST

Christmas isn't about "stuff" to me anyway, so I guess I don't fit the mainstream.

Didn't you know that Jesus and God want you to buy things to celebrate the Lord's Birth? Beware the Wrath of Jehovah!!!

    #1.10 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:07 PM EST

    Bitch all you want about foreign made products, but we have no one but the unions to blame.

    • 5 votes
    #1.11 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:26 PM EST

    I respectfully disagree with your statement about unions being to blame for the lousy state of economic affairs. How much a worker makes should be in line with the cost of goods it needs/wants to consume. Saw an article about an American couple that moved to China. They make less dollars but are able to live VERY comfortable on that income, according to them...much more comfortable than living in the USA on the incomes they made here. The problem here is not the union workers, but the corporations, CEOs, and stock-holders greed.

    Let's not forget that the labor unions fought and got 8 hour work days/40 hour work weeks, safer working conditions, not having to fear that you'll lose your job if you have to stay home when you're sick, for EVERYONE, union member or not.

    • 16 votes
    #1.12 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:18 AM EST

    BS Tina. the blame is on the CEO's Who have stolen the corp. and or Co. blind and betrayed this country, may they rot in hell for their sins of greed, they are no more than economic armed thugs or better than any other terrorist, and it must end now.

    • 7 votes
    #1.13 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:20 AM EST

    Our economy is driven by demand. We have nobody to blame but consumers who choose to buy cheap Chinese crap over quality made goods that come from America and are made with pride. Neither the CEO's nor the Unions are to blame. But it is a fools errand to try to win against a labor arbitrage situation against third world nations by lowering our pay to that of the third world nations. That only turns us into a third world nation.

    • 4 votes
    #1.14 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:32 AM EST
    Ken McCoyDeleted

    ROFL, civil war? What in the heck is happening to this once great country when we get radicals talking about a civil war? I hope you are a young person that should be in school!

    • 1 vote
    #1.17 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:39 AM EST

    Infidel, your right people should support the smaller retailers they will still be there but it's those small guys that could use the help ....

    Now days 98% of my purchases are done strictly on-line, don't have to deal with lines, parking, traffic and its delivered to my door, good luck people ....

    • 1 vote
    #1.18 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:54 AM EST

    Neither of you get it, businesses don't give a damn about parties, they make decisions based on monetary benefit. When there's a labor arbitrage situation, actually when there's any arbitrage situation, businesses will seek to exploit the situation to their benefit. That is just a fact of life. Free Trade allows businesses unfettered access to take advantage of arbitrage situations. But not one politician in either party has any intention of returning to mercantilist trade policies.

    • 1 vote
    #1.19 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:58 AM EST

    I don't work retail and I will not be shopping but the whole thought of Black Friday makes me nauseous. This isn't in any way shape or form my idea of enjoying the holidays.

    • 7 votes
    #1.20 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:16 AM EST

    z1p2 ; I use to buy American and was a proud Walmart shopper when Sam owned it. You could actually buy made in America then. When he died his kids got greedy. If the unions drove the manufacturers out of America why is it we are paying the same or higher price for goods that are imported from China that we use to make here? Higher profits mean bigger bonuses for the CEO...........I never shop on Black Friday. I went window shopping last week and didn't see one thing I would buy anyway. Even our local retailers didn't have any made in america stuff. Most of it was purchased through SMC and carried made in china labels. I use to be an SMC rep so I know.

    • 5 votes
    #1.21 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:14 AM EST

    I couldn't agree more with you, however, Americans are too lazy to look at labels to see where an item is manufactured, such as China. They'll be quick to complain about all the junk coming in from there but they won't take any steps to boycott buying something made there. Hypocrites, no, just lazy to go that extra effort to look where something is made and to spend the time and money to find a product made in the good old USA.

    • 1 vote
    #1.22 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:55 AM EST

    I don't now and have never understood the individual who will get up at the wee hours of the morning and participate in such lunacy? We have truly reached the ultimate low point as a society of brain dead consumers.

    knock yourself out!

    • 2 votes
    #1.23 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:31 AM EST

    Unions did not drive manufacturing out of American, short-sighted corporate and investor greed did. Instead of long term stability and growth, they want short term profits they can pocket, and the only way to achieve that is to ship the job off to someone willing to work for $2.00 an hour.

    • 3 votes
    #1.24 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:51 AM EST

    I didnt say shop at night, I speaking of Black Friday.. Smaller Crowds? Yea right..

    • 2 votes
    #1.26 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:34 PM EST

    I refuse to leave my family and friends during Thanksgiving just to shop. Some of these retailers have really risen to a higher rank of greed.

    • 4 votes
    #1.27 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:41 PM EST

    they aren't a bunch of angry malcontents

    The day after news stories we get every year about how violent the crowds got tend to paint a very different picture.

    • 1 vote
    #1.29 - Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:12 AM EST

    Between the two of you, Carolyn seems much less pissed off.

    • 3 votes
    #1.31 - Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:50 AM EST

    Wow! LOL! Someone needs a Valium and a mental evaluation.

    • 2 votes
    #1.32 - Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:46 AM EST

    A lot of people disagree, and will go. it's a free country. Some families even make it an outing together -- because they enjoy it and they aren't a bunch of angry malcontents sitting around on a holiday

    It seems best destiny is the only one angry here and it goes a whole lot deeper than shopping on Thanksgiving.

    • 1 vote
    #1.33 - Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:53 AM EST
    Reply

    Nice article but as a reader, I can't overlook all the typos. You represent one of the most well know news outlets and can't bother to proofread your work.

    • 9 votes
    #2 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:30 PM EST

    GC247: Follow your own advice............. KNOW.... (KNOWN)

    • 22 votes
    #2.1 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:33 PM EST

    I totally agree, does MSNBC have any proofreaders? Their articles seem to be getting worse in regards to typos, grammar mistakes and the like.

    Fed Up-3261941: Chill. At least GC247 isn't getting paid for his/her typos.

    • 6 votes
    #2.2 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:05 PM EST

    Yes, but GC is so hypercritical of everyone else, look in the mirror GC, and lighten up.

    • 3 votes
    #2.3 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:36 PM EST

    We need to cut more funding from education. Education in the United States has been a failure, so why do we spend so much of the tax payers hard earned money on it? (sarcasm)

    • 6 votes
    #2.4 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:42 PM EST

    I think you should've proofread your work buddy the word is KNOWN.

      #2.5 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:46 PM EST

      The main rason China and Japan are ahead of the US in education is they do not educate the stupid. Before school starts, the kids are given a test. the ones who pass go to cscholl. The ones who fail go to work. Before high school, another test. Passers go on, the fails go to work. Before college, another test. The passers go to college, the fails to trade school.

      is this good or bad? Don't know. But some parents do not care at all, some care too much , and some can't admit their kids are dumb.

      • 3 votes
      #2.6 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:37 PM EST

      oldman, that's ridiculous. I don't believe you for a second.

      I totally agree, does MSNBC have any proofreaders?

      No. Spellcheck and Grammarcheck eliminated those positions several years ago.

      • 2 votes
      #2.7 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:33 AM EST

      So now the Article "Black Friday" is about grammatical errors, and typos. It does happen to all of us--

      I always pass by the errors, looking for solid content coming from the writer.

      No one is Perfect; "To Err is Human".

      Take that to the Bank---Life is full of errors; some of us were born as "Errors"--concentrate on helping others, less critical about minutiae that means nothing.

      With age comes wisdom.

      • 2 votes
      #2.8 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:44 AM EST

      This is part of the problem - and people buy into this BS. Stay home with your family. Do you really need that extra - whatever?

      We create our own demise - quit spending like druken sailors - our country is in meltdown mode folks and you could be the next casualty.

      • 1 vote
      #2.9 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:04 AM EST

      let people have the choice, deborah. why does everyone need to think like you? people like YOU are the source of a lot of the divisiveness in this country.

      Let people have a voice best destiny! You've been systematically attacking everyone in here. Go have a drink. Relax. Take a breath and learn to get along without the insults.

        #2.11 - Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:57 AM EST

        Actually, I'm a very happy person with many friends and am always open to other peoples views. YOU on the other hand have been spewing so much anger at everyone on this sight not only here but other forums. With that attitude it seems your only friend must be the computer which is probably you're only source of communicating with others outside your four walls. Who the heck else would want to communicate with someone like you? I'm actually having a ball watching the nut job (that's you) spewing your hatred and anger at some many people then you say others are angry and hateful. LOL! What a riot! 32 years on the police force huh? I'm sure you've seen a lot out there. Maybe you have some unaddressed PTSD? There's help and meds for that. Use your retirement bennies to help yourself.

          #2.13 - Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:33 PM EST

          Oh look at the time. I must be off to see my friends for a nice time. You stay there, be angry and erratic with your comments. That's seems to make your day.

            #2.14 - Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:39 PM EST
            Reply

            Why this is very upsetting that we should deny these retailers the ability to exploit there employees for their own private gain. The "little people" should willingly accept their low status and lack of any representation in government and gladly accept any work that comes their way especially on Thanksgiving Day! Just think how that money will come in handy paying for future increases in food and health care.

            • 24 votes
            Reply#3 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:42 PM EST

            Well if 40% of your income was going to be earned in the next six weeks, you'd be stretching the line a bit too perhaps. If it doesn't work, they won't do it. (and I'm just waiting to see if the young man who started the petition against Target's extended hours is going to be able to hang on to his job when this is through.)

            • 3 votes
            #3.1 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:48 PM EST

            Oh please, first y'all whine no one is hiring. Now you're whining about inconvenient work hours.

            Grow up, shut up, and stop whining. It's like the nation has turned into a bunch of spoiled whiny little girls.

            • 11 votes
            #3.2 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:06 PM EST

            The easiest solution to this problem is to move Black Friday to Wednesday. If everybody gets their stupid rush out of them the day before Thanksgiving, then they can actually enjoy their family life on a day where we should be thankful for the littlest of things in life. For me, I'll be thankful for a wife that actually puts up with me, and an amazing son who looks up to me.

            • 8 votes
            #3.3 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:08 PM EST

            Or, we could cancel Thanksgiving altogether and just shop the whole week. Hey! That's an idea!

            • 2 votes
            #3.4 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:38 PM EST

            Best Destiny-I couldn't have said it better!!!!!! I can't stand it when people make decisions that they hate (unless it's something REALLY dire and life-threatening, etc) and bitch all the time about it.

            • 1 vote
            #3.6 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:14 PM EST

            At double time for working a holiday who's being exploited? I'd be smiling to the bank. Normally when they want to be opened a holiday that's normally a day off they ask for volunteers and bribe the employees with all the donuts, and coffee they can eat and drink as well as paying double time.

            I work retail and have one word of advice. We the floor associates are going to be working with multiple people at once. You act nasty to us or treat us as if we are to do your bidding you will go to the end of my help list and I may forget I was working with you and never return to you.

            • 3 votes
            #3.7 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:04 AM EST

            Devlin7,

            I work retail and have one word of advice. We the floor associates are going to be working with multiple people at once. You act nasty to us or treat us as if we are to do your bidding you will go to the end of my help list and I may forget I was working with you and never return to you.

            They'll just go to your boss and complain, or worse, farther up the ladder... then the corporation will give them free stuff for all the trouble you caused them and your boss feels heat from above to reprimand you and when that happens enough your boss will just fire you. I've worked retail before as well, and I've seen it happen, I've seen co-workers fired for doing nothing wrong. There's no good solution to certain types of cranky customers, at least no legal solutions. So just grin and bear it until it becomes unbearable.

            • 3 votes
            #3.8 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:45 AM EST

            @Paul F - oh give it a rest, will you? What is it with people who insist that everyone who doesn't like a crappy situation is a "whiner"? Sounds a lot like thinking the "little people" should just take whatever BS comes down the pike and shut up about it. Disliking a crappy situation isn't whining as much as it's a grasp of what's glaringly obvious.

            Reps from major retailers have stated in interviews that opening on Thanksgiving instead of Black Friday is more about free advertising and publicity than it is about the expected sales. So for the sake of free advertising, some retailers think there's nothing wrong with depriving their employees of a national holiday traditionally spent with family and friends. For you to think it's "whining" to say that situation sucks says more about you than it does about the people who dislike having to work on Thanksgiving.

            • 7 votes
            #3.9 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:30 AM EST
            Reply

            I saw a man on the news this morning camped out at a best buy. A week early. WTF is wrong with people?

            And if you can camp out in a parking lot for a week without working and probably spending money on fast food I'm guessing you don't really need the bargains.

            • 27 votes
            Reply#4 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:53 PM EST

            They do need the bargains if mom and dad won't give them extra money to buy that stuff. . . And, sleeping in a tent at the BB parking lot can't be that much worse than sleeping in their parents' basement, can it?

            • 3 votes
            #4.1 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:18 PM EST

            oh you two whiny geezers are a hoot: only the young and unemployed buy things?? ( hurts to watch democracy in action when it's not the Tea Party, eh?)

            • 6 votes
            #4.2 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:42 PM EST

            Hey Apple picker, who said anything about being young and unemployed? I said if you have enough money that you don't need a job and you can camp out in the parking lot for a week why go through such extremes to buy something.

            And for the record narrow minded ding dong, I'm an independant and I'm sick of you lefties and righties pointing fingers at each other because in case you haven't noticed brain dead its not working. You are part of the problem not the solution.

            • 10 votes
            #4.3 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:53 PM EST

            Speaking of what you describe: I have no idea whether the guy was unemployed and you don't either. You don't know whether he was earning money from others to get them things which happens every season, taking time off, unemployed or whatever. Extreme? Yeah. Do I care? No.If 40% of your income was earned from consumers in these weeks like these merchants, you might do everything you could to encourage that kind of behavior as well by offering outrageous deals to the first in line. Hey. That's capitalism. Such assumptions and name calling are not really the solution.

            • 1 vote
            #4.4 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:55 PM EST

            All to buy a bunch of crap made in China from disgruntled employees that wanted a holiday off to give to people who will probably regift it next year. Screw the holidays - I'm giving to a favorite charity in my friends/families names and going to Mexico.

            • 3 votes
            #4.5 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:18 PM EST

            Bob is right. WTF is wrong with people. 9 days before is completely stupid and shows ignorance. I cannot believe how people have let the true meaning of these holidays completely go away. It isn't how much and how expensive the gift. I, for the first time in 16 years, will not have the extreme pleasure of being with my husband these holidays due to the sickening economy. He has had to take a job OTR and will not be home. So, I am a little more sensitive this year to the fact that I would much rather spend the holidays waking up next to him or talking to him over coffee than blowing a bunch of money.

            Everyone is complaining about the economy and no money and now you see this. NO SYMPATHY FOR THEM!!!! If after this they B****, they should be smacked upside the head and shown video, which I am sure the news will capture, of their stupidty. Chirstmas doesn't stand for spend as much money as you can on stupid crap people. It is a blessed birthday. Makes me sick.

            • 5 votes
            #4.6 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:45 PM EST

            Isn't that considered loitering? They aren't buying anything, just still there. I think they should be made to leave the property. Let them come back on Black Friday. That applies to anyone who is there more then a few hours before they open. There is no reason to camp out days before.

            • 1 vote
            #4.7 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:29 PM EST

            Best Buy already said they will be giving the family an award for being the "first family to Black Friday". Nice, huh?

            Business is driven by the consumer. If consumers didn't show up at midnight to shop there would be no reason to do it. What's wrong with opening at 7 or 8 am? Black Friday isn't fun anymore!

            • 2 votes
            #4.8 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:40 PM EST

            You are absolutely right, when will people start dealing with the truth of past, present and future? It lies before all of us. This is why we are in the mess we are in today. Hopefully one day it may sink in, but I really don't think so, there are just to many who are just to indifferent to see the truth for what it really is.

            • 1 vote
            #4.10 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:35 AM EST

            Hey if someone wants to camp out all night to "get the best deals" all the more power. I'll just wait a month or two when I can walk right in during the middle of the afternoon and get the same thing at a better price.

              #4.11 - Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:07 AM EST

              You OBVIOUSLY don't know me....for which I am grateful. If anyone needs to chill, it's YOU! You seem to be having an awful lot of fun trying to drag people down like a dog. You've always been that way. As for the live and let live attitude. When are you going to adopt that theory? Everytime someone posts an opinion, for which they have a right to do even if it doesn't match YOURS you launch your pitbull attack. It's actually kind of entertaining. It must be the PTSD. I'm telling ya, get the meds to calm the demons. You won't be sorry.

                #4.13 - Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:47 PM EST
                Reply

                I don't shop in big stores anymore. I plan on either making my gifts or buying them from local shops/craft vendors. We don't need any more of our money going to big corporations who exploit humans just for their own private gain. Know where your money really goes, help your local economy by shopping local.

                • 15 votes
                Reply#5 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:02 PM EST

                I was sent a link the other day that apparently was from an ad on Al Roker's NBC and TWC weather reports. It dealt with just what you are saying.

                http://smallbusinesssaturday.com/

                As for my holiday gift giving, I've made my gifts for the past several years.....homemade chocolates and whole wheat bread. I buy the chocolate from Ambrosia in Wisconsin (through a local retailer in OH by way of my mother), and I make my own peanut butter and caramel for the candies.

                • 7 votes
                #5.1 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:45 PM EST

                anti-trust proponent I want to be on your Christmas list!!!!!!!!!!! yummy!!!!!!!!

                • 5 votes
                #5.2 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:20 PM EST

                A gift made by your own hands is so much more thoughtful than the purchase of random chattel . . . Good on you guys! Wish I was on your list!

                  #5.3 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:31 PM EST
                  Reply

                  In the name of greed, we will disregard family, tradition, and a national day of rest. In the U.S there seems to be NOTHING more important than making money, NOTHING. Time with your kids, reading a book, taking a walk, praying, time to reflect - throw it all out in the trash because the corporations that rule this nation dictate to us that there is no longer a sacred day of rest. Its not just about the idiots who rush out for that holy bargain for a holiday that is not occurring for another full month. Its about the employees who now must sacrifice family time to stock our shelves with plastic junk from China so that multi-national companies can take good care of their shareholders. There are so many things painfully wrong about this scenario.

                  • 34 votes
                  Reply#6 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:09 PM EST

                  I refuse to shop on Black Friday--did it once about 20 years ago, and people acted so crazy that I refuse to do it again. People were taking things out of other people's carts, fighting over toys & electronics. When there's people that die due to being trampled underfoot & stampeded for the latest fad, there is a big problem. I'd rather spend the day at home with my family.

                  P.S.--RoyBatty, cool screen name!

                  • 6 votes
                  #6.1 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:07 PM EST

                  I go out on Black Friday. I don't go for the sales, but rather for the atmosphere.

                  Seeing the utter insanity and depravity that people are willing to sink to during a mindless consumerist stampede is sobering. It reminds one of the dangers of not thinking things through, of falling into a herd mentality, and letting one's things own and define oneself.

                  As of last year I started taking my teenaged brother along. It gives us a chance to bond, since we're 13 years apart [he was 5 when I "left the nest", so we're not as close as I'd like]...plotting and scheming on who's getting what for the rest of the family, sneaking gifts for each other under one another's noses (Last year he carried a box full of stuff for him and didn't even know it, convinced 'his' was in the bag instead), laughing at grown women literally brawling over a cardboard standee, and generally flowing through the sea of madness in our own little bubble of calm.

                  • 8 votes
                  #6.2 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:01 PM EST

                  amen roybatty amen!!!! you are the bomb and nailed it. nothing more to say. money, money, money.

                  • 1 vote
                  #6.3 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:47 PM EST

                  I refuse to recognise Thanksgiving as a holiday, but I take the time off for Black Friday!

                    #6.4 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:41 PM EST

                    Roy. Can;'t say that I agree with you fully -- since things like hand-mumbling are just a cultist waste of time -- but I must say that you've got a great SN.

                    Look another attack. If you're not religious, that's your business but there you go, attacking those who prefer to enjoy it. There goes the live and let live attitude you spoke about.

                      #6.6 - Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:50 PM EST
                      Reply

                      Support the Church to Stop Shopping!!

                      • 3 votes
                      Reply#7 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:11 PM EST

                      Support neither.

                      They are both greedy money grubbers.

                      • 4 votes
                      #7.1 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:36 PM EST

                      Only an atheist would give that stupid answer.

                        #7.2 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:43 PM EST

                        Best Destiny, being an atheist is the very last thing I would ever brag about,. Your juvenille slams about believers reveal YOUR lack of common decency and yes, common sense. Grow up!

                        • 1 vote
                        #7.4 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:45 AM EST

                        Linda But, you have no problem admitting to being a backwards sun worshipper? I don't even bother trying to show you people the truth anymore. I just take joy in watching you fume as you realize that the world is evolving around you, without you. This is a secular country, always has been, always will be, even if we forgot it for a while in the 50s. Christmas and thanksgiving are no longer your holidays, they are for everybody. Just like xmas was taken from the pagans by the christians, so it will be takenfrom you. Right now backward beliefs are having a resurgence but, soon when people in the US realize that we are a secular nation surrounded by a world of logic hating heathens who want the world ruled by sharia law, people will realize that other religions are no different. Then I hope we will finally see freedom of religion as freedom from religion.

                        • 4 votes
                        #7.6 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:43 PM EST
                        Reply

                        Only a total loser would be at one of these stores at midnight.

                        • 6 votes
                        Reply#8 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:05 PM EST

                        I will be there, but only because I will be working and need the money to buy food... I mean you know how well retailers pay...

                        • 2 votes
                        #8.1 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:52 PM EST
                        Reply

                        I couldn't agree more with dismissing the Black Friday Sales! My mother works in retail and is ALWAYS away from her family because of black friday! I can't tell you the last time we saw her on Thanksgiving for an entire day! We usually have to take her a plate to work so she doesn't miss out. Also, a COP almost ran me over a few years ago to get a freaking CHRISTMAS TREE! That was it for me! I shopped online last year, and that made my gift giving season so much less complicated. I found BETTER deals online a lot of the time, and it was delivered straight to my house..no mess, no fuss!

                        • 9 votes
                        Reply#9 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:13 PM EST

                        RoyBatty, LOVE your comment! I couldn't have said it better myself!

                        • 1 vote
                        Reply#10 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:16 PM EST

                        You retail slaves shouldn't be able to spend the Holidays with your families - You should be thankful you have a job and serve me when I want it. That is why I they pay you $7.50 per hour (obvious sarcasm)

                        Can't we get by for two days without shopping. I think all stores and gas stations should close on the holidays - holidays shouldn't only be for the salaried rich.

                        • 12 votes
                        Reply#11 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:16 PM EST

                        The only thing I disagree with is the closing of gas stations. I travel by car to spend Thanksgiving day with family, and work the following Friday, so I have to be able to buy gas to get home.

                        • 2 votes
                        #11.1 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:43 PM EST

                        As a tourist retailer, we have to follow the old farmer's adage.....make hay while the sun shines, and the tourist is the sunshine. So, due to a cruise ship in on Thanksgiving Day, I will be working (alone) at our retail store. Of course, I have no family to tend to on the holidays, since I refuse to travel back to OH from sunny St. Croix and they don't come here to visit either. So holidays are just another day in the workweek for me. If local people feel they just MUST shop instead of relaxing, I'm willing to make my business available to them....but only during my regularly scheduled store hours (Monday - Saturday and Cruise Ship Sundays.)

                        • 1 vote
                        #11.2 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:57 PM EST

                        You can't buy gas on Wednesday?

                        • 8 votes
                        #11.3 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:54 PM EST

                        Anti trust, I will volunteer to come for you. Of course I am one of the poor people with no money, but I would totally be there. Sounds better than watching these idiots here, claiming to be unemployed or struggling, spending all their savings on crap.

                        • 1 vote
                        #11.4 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:51 PM EST

                        I'm not salaried and I'm not rich and I get the holidays off.

                        • 1 vote
                        #11.5 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:54 PM EST

                        Steve-I think you need to tell this to my brother and his supposed girlfriend. They shop, and I'm not kidding you, 4-6 hours per day during the week, and a lot more on the weekends. Black Friday-they are out with everyone else. makes me sick. They both have full-time jobs on top of this. On Christmas they open gifts for at least 4 hours. It's so sad.

                        • 2 votes
                        #11.7 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:22 PM EST

                        do you live under a rock? if you need gas then buy it Wednesday or use your debit card at the pump. need snacks for your road trip? buy them ahead of time. its cheaper anyway. this is whats wrong with the country. people like severed head. i remember as a kid, back in the 80s, that on thanksgiving it was like a ghost town. there might have been a restaurant open but that's about it.

                        • 1 vote
                        #11.8 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:39 AM EST
                        Reply

                        I have rarely shopped on Black Friday, and never before 10am! This year I am planning on maybe doing some hiking, then going back to cook dinner for Friday night - Puerco Pabil! the recipe from Robert Rodriguez' "Once Upon A Time In Mexico" which is great for the day after Thanksgiving!

                          Reply#12 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:35 PM EST

                          BF is one of the saddest US traditions. The rest of the world sit back, watch and LTFAO.

                          • 11 votes
                          Reply#13 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:36 PM EST

                          jackinthebox-4551379

                          You're right, the world does sit back and watch, but most of us don't laugh any more, it just isn't funny.

                          Someone above said something about the incredible deals, and how reatilers have to do this to make money, but really, if they can afford to give you 50% off, it seems to me they're charging too much to begin with, and don't really need any more money.

                          No other country has "Black Friday", and all those same retailers (Sears, Wal-Mart, etc.) still make their Christmas shopping profits in other countries. I hate to say it, but the people of the U.S. are being played for suckers, and sadly, far too many of you let yourselves get played.

                          • 7 votes
                          #13.1 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:34 PM EST

                          it most certainly is! whatever happened to thanksgiving where nothing was open.Its not the stores that have to leave their families! its very unfair for a corporation to tell their employees that they have to work on the hoiliday... and all you stupid idiots who go out at the ass-crack of dawn or before and trample people to death so you can get a motha truckin elmo doll ought to be knocked the eff out! its a disgusting show of corporate greed. i for one am going to occupy black friday in my pajamas watching all you ass clowns make fools of yourselves and ruining americas already poor image. and if you are going to go put everything on credit thas another tangent i wont even get started on.

                            #13.3 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:51 AM EST

                            Best Destiny

                            "it's a sad tradition to let stores open and close when they want?"

                            Yes, because they are NOT people, no matter what the supreme court has said, and they have NO RIGHTS under the constitution.

                            "every person who is out shopping on a holiday is there VOLUNTARILY. get over yourself"

                            But what about the people that are forced to work, or face the prospect of losing their jobs? Do they not have the same right to have the day off to spend with family? Or maybe working in retail these days means you're a second class citizen, and not entitled to the same holidays as the rest of society?

                            If the Government is shut down because it's a holiday, then EVERYONE except those providing necessary services(fire, police, ambulance, etc.) has the right to have the day off, after all, the government is supposed to be "The People".

                            That is the argument as far as I'm concerned.

                            • 4 votes
                            #13.5 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:27 AM EST

                            jackinthebox-4551379

                            BF is one of the saddest US traditions. The rest of the world sit back, watch and LTFAO.

                            I didn’t know that Thanksgiving which results in Black Friday is an international holiday!
                            What do they do on 4th of July in England? :)

                              #13.6 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:19 AM EST

                              Bestdestiny, what is WRONG is that by opening their stores so early, people who work there are FORCED to work when they are supposed to be off spending time with family. Now so someone else can make an extra buck they are going to disrupt family time. Nobody expects anyone to "think" like they do, but they would like to have their family holiday respected. Do you think these Excutives who thought up this idea are going to give up time with their families? NOPE!!!! They will just sit back and enjoy their time while some poor soul is expected to give up their time for them to make bonuses. Do you think they are offering these employees a bonus for doing this? NOPE!!!! Thanksgiving is a holiday to share with family and friends and give thanks, not see how much money you can blow or make. Thanksgiving and Christmas should be left alone.

                                #13.8 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:40 PM EST

                                i was a police officer for 32 years. we worked holidays and shiftwork. i knew it when i signed up. if i didn't like it, I could go get another job!

                                These are essential services performed by essential personnel that our Nation depends on for security and safety. I would expect that our Nuclear Plants have some staff in place, our airports are functioning. Hey, even I had to work on holidays and I am a musician – someone has to entertain all these people who work their a$$ off entire year.

                                What essential services Wal-Mart provides that without it opened on Thanksgiving Day our Nation’s security and safety will be compromised?
                                Families may not have place to buy toilet paper after they stuff themselves with enormous amount of food that may feed entire village somewhere else in the world? Or the life will end without that 55 inch TV that some camps for 2 weeks in advance in front of BestBuy?

                                And while I had to work holidays too in the past, I never went to work on these days with the thought “I suffer, so you better too”. And I never thought that keeping retail opened on holidays is as essential as having police station running.

                                  #13.9 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:04 PM EST

                                  goddam control freaks

                                  That’s obviously adds weight to your argument...

                                  "Everyone has to think exactly like I do, and has to behave exactly like I do..."

                                  You cannot stand that some people do not think exactly like you do, and do not behave exactly like you do?

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #13.11 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:53 PM EST

                                  you cannot connect the reading comprehension thing

                                  Man, you are on the roll today! Keep up the good job! :)

                                    #13.14 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:05 PM EST
                                    Reply

                                    This reduces consumers to animals snarling over a carcass, oops meant bargain.

                                    When I was a kid, nothing was open on Sunday or any major holiday. We survived.

                                    • 7 votes
                                    Reply#14 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:41 PM EST

                                    The point of my comment was that these early openings reduce people to animals snarling over a carcass/bargain.

                                    I don't care if stores are open on Sundays or holidays what I don't like is what the early opening frenzy does to people.

                                    We all survived before this behavior.

                                    With your pissy attitude, I hope you are not our best destiny

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #14.2 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:10 AM EST
                                    Reply

                                    i worked for toys r us for 20 years and its all about the money and greed they seen that walmart was opening at 10 so greedy corporate decided to open an hour early its got a name its called desperation

                                    • 5 votes
                                    Reply#15 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:44 PM EST

                                    I shop on Black Friday for my children....Toys r' us started this madness of opening on Thanksgiving last year. I wrote them an email and told them I thought it was deplorable and that I would not spend a cent in their store. Actually, I have not bought anything there all this year and I do not plan on it. Looks like my "blacklist" is going to get longer...

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #15.1 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:52 PM EST

                                    Many people seem to think stores like Toys-R-Us or Wal-Mart were the first ones that started opening their stores on Thanksgiving Day. However, that honor goes to K-Mart. In 1991, K-Mart was the first retail store chain to open it's stores on Thanksgiving Day, allowing people to shop their stores before settling in for Thanksgiving dinner. They don't stay open all day and night, opening from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. This year, I've seen for the first time Big Lots opening their stores on Thanksgiving, with the same hours as K-Mart.

                                      #15.3 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:39 AM EST
                                      Reply

                                      Kudos to J.C. Penney and Sears for letting their employees enjoy their Thanksgiving!

                                      • 23 votes
                                      Reply#16 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:46 PM EST

                                      Sales are great, but Holidays should be enjoyed for what they are. Whether it is family time, time for friends, no working for the working class or whatever it should be a time of peace and quiet and not shop till you drop. That went out in my opinion in the 90's. Folks need to get a life and not worry about standing in line for a deal.

                                      • 7 votes
                                      Reply#17 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:00 PM EST

                                      You and others may enjoy shopping in the middle of the night/early morning but maybe, the people who are having to work at that time would rather be at home with their families. They don't have a choice. Instead the are having to work because people can't wait until normal business hours to shop.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #17.2 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:58 PM EST

                                      Bestdestiny you just made my point, even though you didn't intend to. YOU said why don't you give people a choice. What about the choice of employees being forced to work who would rather be with family??? You aren't thinking of them of course just yourself and the rest of the greedy people out there. Opening 4 hours earlier is really going to do something grand??? If an employee doesn't work they risk their jobs all for you and the rest who you think deserve the "choice". WOW!!!! True greed roared it's ugly head and you proved what everyone is saying, without intending to.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #17.4 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:45 PM EST

                                      christ on a biscuit....you seem to use that a lot.....does it taste like chicken??

                                        #17.6 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:43 AM EST
                                        Reply

                                        Middle of the night store openings are absolutely ridiculous... The stores will still be there at 9am , 3pm or just about anytime from black friday to christmas eve. The few bargains are not worth losing sleep over and fighting lunatic parents trying to get the latest toy / gadget. We've lost the meaning of the season with the over commercialization going on in this country. Time to pull back and reflect on our religious beliefs ..!!

                                        • 4 votes
                                        Reply#18 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:02 PM EST

                                        Nick, the stores are "claiming" this is what we wanted and they are only giving in to us. What do you mean you won't be there??? You mean they are lying? (Being sarcastic of course.)

                                        • 3 votes
                                        #18.1 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:54 PM EST

                                        Actually, there are many more believers than atheists in this country. YOU might not care about many of our beliefs but again, YOU are in the minority. Your tirade against Christians or believers of any type in God shows a lot of hatred and a lack of common decency. Just what I would expect from an atheist, sadly!

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #18.3 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:52 AM EST
                                        CaliManDeleted

                                        Best Destiny

                                        "always impressive to find christians who claim to derive joy when they think of other people who they think will be suffering/burning for an eternity."

                                        Those such as CaliMan are NOT Christians, they just think and claim they are because they go to a church on Sunday and have a nice nap while the Minister tells them all the things they don't really want to hear, and "Heaven" forbid they should actually READ the Bible, what with all those words and all...

                                        There are good Christians out there BD, they're just heavily out numbered by the ignorant and hypocritical hate mongers these days.

                                          #18.7 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:58 AM EST

                                          What would you expect from BestDestiny?? Christ on a biscuit is his or her favorite meal.

                                            #18.9 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:45 AM EST
                                            Reply

                                            Great info! www.bfguys.com (Black Friday 4 Guys)

                                              Reply#19 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:05 PM EST

                                              Shopping malls are the cathedrals of capitalism, sales circulars are our liturgy, and Black Friday is the holiest day of the year. Tradition requires that all consumers must go and worship at the altar of the all-powerful Economy.

                                              • 9 votes
                                              Reply#20 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:19 PM EST

                                              That's it. You're off the holiday list.

                                                #20.1 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:43 PM EST

                                                Okay, you just made me laugh out loud! Thanks.

                                                  #20.2 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:47 PM EST
                                                  Reply
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