The death of FDR had alot to do with the end of the depression.

It was mainly WWII. Everyone knows that wars produce a lot of money for top bankers.

“We could be in for a repeat of the experience of 1937, when America fell back into recession after three years of recovery from the Great Depression,” he wrote in the Financial Times. Two years after the U.S. recession technically ended, evidence continues to build that the weak recovery is stalling out. The U.S. economy stopped producing new jobs in August after a string of mostly meager monthly job gains that failed to bring the unemployment rate below 9 percent."

I never felt like the recession ended. The federal government's borrowing and squandering our money only slowed down the descent, it never made the markets recover. Think about it- real estate market bubble popped, we're still hearing of waves of foreclosure coming. Job losses, unemployment is climbing again. You get the picture?

It never made the markets recover?

What in the world are you talking about the dow has gained 3000 pts. since the beginning of the recession. Get a clue. If these businesses would have started spending when they recovered we would be a hell of alot better off right now, with lower unemployment. Put the politics down and get a clue. An economics class would not hurt either.

Recession second act.....could be worse than the first recession......what RECESSION ? asks a Liberal.

Wait a minute.....

Linda, can you not make your point without the name calling?

Good thing Obama wasted all those TRILLIONS in a vain attempt to postpone the inevitable from happening until after he is out of office... once he gets his next $400 million we should be able to "spend our way to prosperity".... for another year.

Think our politicians will do the right thing and attempt to actually fix things this time around? or will they just use more smoke and mirrors to kick the can down the road while burying us under debt?

The Dems haven't learned a thing so Republicans and the Tea Party are our only hope.

Joemike, policital correctness has run it's course. Even liberals are now calling idiots, idiots. Not having done so gave us the Tea Party.

Would it be worse to fall into a double-dip, or having allowed market correction to happen the first time around?

War in Europe was declared in 1939. FDR was surrounded by isolationists led by Charles Lindburgh, Joe Kennedy and several other prominent politicians. Churchill knew his only hope was to get the US to join the war but up until 1941, there was a strict policy of neutrality. So much so that the 200-300 brave US flyers that sneaked over to fly in the Battle of Britain were under threat of losing their citizenship if they returned.

The weapons and ammunition used by the Brits during the Battle of Britain, were bought on credit or under Lend/lease arrangements from the US. Some of these weapons were sent to Stalin to defend the eastern front. This provided a tremendous economic boost to the United States at a critical time in the recovery from the 1937 recession.

Linda - you are half right. I'm not a Tea Party advocate, but they are trying to get us to balance our budget and pay our debt down. The present administration is spending money at every turn, and when he frees up more money, he spends it. That is exactly what got American into its present predicament.

Linda,

Obama wants to be another FDR, but fortunately with an informed electorate, he won't have the chance to drag out the recession for 12 years as FDR did. Only a highly-educated, smarter-than-the-rest liberal can equate a 12-year depression as a record of success.

Linda...

“We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work.”

A quote from Henry Morgenthau Jr. — close friend, lunch companion, loyal secretary of the Treasury to President Franklin D. Roosevelt — and key architect of FDR’s New Deal.

WWII ended the Great Depression, not the New Deal.

I don't know why anyone in there right mind would allow another recession. The Sates can print their own currency and restart the American Economy!

I guess it is all in how you look at it and what power they may lose.

It doesn't have to be an end make it a new beginning. It is what it is or it is what we make it?

The only ones going to be pushing the gold standard have the gold.

The market isn't going to correct until Banks forgive a lot of that debt and just let it go. Otherwise, it will take years and years for all of those people who are under their mortgage to get back on top of it and start seeing equity again. Equity = access to disposable funds We can spend until we're blue at the government level, it doesn't make any difference the political nature of who's in power. Politics cannot fix what is broken. And neither can the antics of the Fed.

My opinion is we need to let the market correct and quit propping up failed institutions. That's what Japan has been doing for over a decade and they still have a government spending dependent economy. Yes, there will be pain - and we need to ensure the safety net is there so nobody is hungry or homeless - and I think everyone is ok with that level of expenditure.

We also need to start being generally business friendly again - mainly by changing the tax and regulatory environment. What we have now is, a few select companies and industries with influence get tons of special breaks, and everyone else (mainly small business) gets extra taxes and regulations to make up the difference. This is not a recipe for stable, long-term growth.

War doesn't help the economy anymore as we found out in the last 10 years. Too much of the money leaves the country through outsourcing and foreign investors (like Saudi Arabia) in our defence contractors. So now our wars make the rich all over the world wealthier and us poorer.

Is it MSNBC's job to print doom and gloom? To speculate? Or does a news outlet report facts?

When the country voted for hope and change, a new extremist faction of the repub party (koch bros t-party) closed the only and last window of opportunity for america and the world to avert the greatest of depressions with unhonorable obstruction and a polarizing radical ideology. Believe this is what future students will learn from history lessons. Actually though, personally, I don't think there is ANY leader that could lead us out of the hole Bush and Cheney dug for us.

Linda,

Prosperity in America after WWII had little to do with FDR. It had everything to do with the fact that most of the rest of the world's manufacturing was devastated by the war. We were in a unique situation to have our infrastructure left intact. We hand a hand up in getting back to a "peacetime" economy while everyone else had to rebuild.

pjam09 The Dems haven't learned a thing so Republicans and the Tea Party are our only hope.

This mess started at the end of the Bush administration. The economic collapse happened after 8 years of a republican president and after the republicans had controlled congress for 6 of the previous 8 years.

When you give the car keys to someone and he crashes your expensive sports car into a tree, you don't give him the car keys back for a good LONG time.

These are the facts. Most analysts are saying that the market couldl fall to 7000 and this next year will be worse than 2008. MSNBC is behind the curve as it is part of the Obamamedia that has been printing White House talking points as news. None of this a surprise to those of us who have been watching Fox News and Fox Business Network.

ron: Think you are more on point than most. Our global banking system with the Fed in the lead thrives on debt, up to a point. They make money on interest from loans. Generally, when a borrower gets too deeply in debt, the banks quit loaning, thereby insuring that if there is a default the loss will be reduced. Failing countries like Greece got that way by continually borrowing, and being unable to use GDP to pay for government entitlements and costs. The borrowed money is too great and a default is inevitable.

The US is far worse off than Greece in terms of borrowed money. Our ace in the hole is the dollar as reserve global currency. Remove that and we're sunk. Our politicans are a joke, those that have a clue are demonized and accused of wanting to' kill granny.' They're caught between a rock and a hard spot and also unable to get off the borrowing and spending habit.

There is only one way that this gridlock and scenario will play itself out with things as they stand and that is collapse. The foundation has shifted and no amount of bandaid therapy will correct something that has been crooked for decades. Looking to the government is counterproductive, there is no intelligent being to guide and unwieldy and topheavy bureaucracies always crumble under their own weight.

The Dems haven't learned a thing so Republicans and the Tea Party are our only hope.

God save us...........

Get Real...

Is it MSNBC's job to print doom and gloom? To speculate? Or does a news outlet report facts?

Excuse me but these are the facts Sherlock.

Infrastructure is vital to attracting and supporting all types of industry. India is into on-line development because infrastructure is easiest to develop in this area; at least, in key cities. Does the US need improved or 'plan for the future' infrastructure? If yes, is it not best to finance at, the now available, less than 2% fixed interest? The mega banks, of course, might prefer 15%.

Health care--most of the developed world provides some form universal health care. Some countries work with private insurers. With Medicare, the US already guaranties to pay all of the costs for every citizen over 65. Private insurers can not make a fair profit by covering only those under 65?

We need to solve the current bubble fallout by putting as many people as possible out of work?

This is about jobs, jobs, jobs. And if we are going to be a global seller/supplier/open our markets to global competition, we will have to look at global job growth and figure out how to survive.

For now, I would rather consider a more protectionist attitude, until we can revive our economy.

Have any of you heard about the Depression of 1920?

How did Harding turn that around so fast that gave America the roaring 20's?

Federal spending was cut from $6.3 billion in 1920 to $5 billion in 1921 and $3.2 billion in 1922. Federal taxes fell from $6.6 billion in 1920 to $5.5 billion in 1921 and $4 billion in 1922. Harding's policies started a trend. The low point for federal taxes was reached in 1924; for federal spending, in1925. The federal government paid off debt, which had been $24.2 billion in 1920, and it continued to decline until 1930.

With Harding's tax and spending cuts and relatively non-interventionist economic policy, GNP rebounded to $74.1 billion in 1922. The number of unemployed fell to 2.8 million— a reported 6.7 percent of the labor force— in 1922. So, just a year and a half after Harding became president, the Roaring Twenties were underway. The unemployment rate continued to decline, reaching an extraordinary low of 1.8 percent in 1926. Since then, the unemployment rate has been lower only once in wartime (1944), and never in peacetime.

Here is why a TRUE LEADER is so important. A President with TRUE LEADERSHIP could say the following words that would get many businesses off the sidelines and employing Americans. Those words are:

Due to the ongoing economic slowdown and threat of a new recession, I am suspending the previously passed Health Care Reform act until such time as the economy recovers, unemployment is reduced to pre-recession levels and a future President and Congress can readdress HCR.

If our President actually had the stones to do that... even though he THINKS HCR is a good idea, it would have a MASSIVE impact all across this country. Doesn't matter if you support HCR or not... lots of employersdon't, and OBAMA CANT change that. Remove the uncertainty... remove the threats to the EVIL RICH to MAKE THEM PAY... remove the extra regulations.... open up our resources for development... end the wars NOW!!!.... end ALL foreign aid NOW!!!.... secure our borders NOW!!! and watch things turn around... or

Keep blaming others like the loser Obama is... never his fault, and I am sure it never will be for his clueless supporters... no matter how long he is in charge.

We need a TRUE LEADER NOW!

Olrock,

I'm not defending some of the antics from the right, but I think both sides are equally partisan/destructive.

I disagree when you say no leader can get us out of this hole...I think if we had either Reagan or Clinton, things would be much better today because they were able to transcend partisanship and make the general population believe things were getting better (which lead to economic activity, which caused things to get better). Obama campaigned as someone that would unite the country, but in practice, he has been just as divisively partisan as our other political leaders (in both parties).

It was not WWII per se that got the U.S. out of the depression. It was the Marshall Plan and the rebuilding of Europe that did it.

Rodney,

I don't agree with all of your points, but I do agree that what we need is a leader in the oval office. (and before I get bashed as a right winger - I voted for Obama and Kerry)

So your dump answer is tell the government stop spending money and everything will be normal again.

If the government stop spending money it would be great depression No. 2.

The State you live in would not receive any Federal assistance that means all schools, police, hospitals and firefighters would not be working in your state.

But you want the Federal government to stop spending. Dam you need an economics class to the ten degree.

Where were you when Bush was in office for 8 years, turning a surplus into the biggest debt black hold ever in history. President Obama is trying to clean up Your Republican mess and your answer to fix everything is let the Republican/Tea Bagger Party in power again. Who do you think is that dumb?

I think we can all agree that what grows the economy is people spending money. The more consumption the more demand, the more demand the more jobs (simply if business is booming you need more workers).

The problem was created by the Centralized Government in collusion with Central Banking. A Centralized Government tends to grow itself rather than shrink. (i.e. you might not allow a local politician like a city councilman give himself a raise because there's a better expectation you'll show up at a council meeting to protest that raise, whereas in Washington, there's really no one watching how Washington grows. Even worse, the people that do show up are lobbyist, with a special agendas to get things none of us would likely approve if we sat in on a meeting.) The system is currently running in a methodology to grow, grow, grow. It does that by continuing to Centralize power. It does that by wooing Corporate lobby on the right, and socialist programs on the left all to gain more and more control.

For the decades that it has that control, it has used CREDIT to fund what it couldn't afford. In collusion the Centralized Banking it started printing money that didn't exist, it bailed out banks that should have just failed (and allowed the people running them that should have been jailed for stealing much of the wealth of Americans with "Derivatives", while hedging their bets with Credit Default Swaps.) It has created a house of cards that made people dependant on its continued existence, when Constitutionally the power should all lie with the States unless the States pass a constitutional amendment GRANTING it power.

The cutting spending by Republicans is two fold a twofold solution to create jobs.

First, to go to extreme, if you hypothetically eradicated the entire Federal Government and left only the Justice Department and Military there would be VERY little in taxes for ANYONE to pay (rich or poor). All that extra money then is in the pockets of all consumers. Think of everyone having an extra 250-2000+ per month in their paycheck, they are going to spend that money consuming.

Consumption > demand > jobs.

Second since there's no money hungry programs in this hypothetical there no need for the government to be operating on CREDIT. Confidence throughout the world would increase in the dollar and we wouldn't being paying interest on Trillions of dollars of borrowed money. That confidence would help not only to motivate American's to start spending, but Foreigner's as well.

Now no one is advocating the wholesale end of all Federal Government programs cold turkey. But many believe that we can phase out these bloated bureaucratic programs to either private enterprise or at minimum the States can pick up these services.

What doesn't grow the economy or create jobs is: growing government.

Ron Paul 2012.

@ Solutions. Bush was the worst President ever. You get points for that one. He was the biggest out of control spender ever. You get points for that too. But Obama spending more, at a level more insane isn't any better. You lose points there.

How come government employees have to take drug tests but elected officials don't?

Hold onto your schweddy Balls I think we are in for a WILD Ride!

American Capitalism has to be FIRST!

jac, if there had been no WWII, then there wouldn't have been a Marshall Plan. Ergo, WWII ended the Great Depression.

JobSeeker -

Your opinion of President Obama may be a subject for debate, but the facts of history are not.

Your remark about the death of President Roosevelt in April, 1945, is absolutely incorrect and a smear on his service to this nation.

The United States was emerging from the Depression in 1939-1940 as industry began production of munitions, ships, and other supplies for nations embroiled in the first year of WWII. By early 1941, the country was essentially wholly out of the Depression, with employment reaching virtual total absorption of available labor by 1942. In fact, wartime employment triggered massive population shifts that culminated in the nation eventually becoming an urban, rather than a mainly rural, agricultural country.

The wartime spending - by governments, not private industry - is as close as this country has ever been to a full-on effort to apply Keynesian economics.

The U.S. would most likely not have slipped back into recession in 1936-37, which prolonged the Depression, as the article explains, if FDR had not turned into something of a deficit hawk in 1936 and cust government spending. he could have taken a lesson or two at the time from Europe. One of the reasons the Nazi Party in Germany was able to retain power, for example, was its spending on public works and other projects that pulled that nation out of the Depression by about 1936. (There were also other, sinister, and malign reasons.)

FDR managed to help keep the U.S. from even deeper economic distress, just as President Obama has done. And FDR in all likelihood staved off a revolution in this country. (Read about the Townsend Act movement, Huey Long's ambitions and proposals, the astonishing defeat of a Democratic Senate candidate in California when his own party endorsed a Republican, and other aspects of the social-political climate of the 1930's.)

Passing the American Jobs Act now - and, hopefully, adding more to it than the President requested - will not only help stabilize and expand the American economy, there's a potentail for the U.S. helping to spare some other economies internationally from falling back toward the abyss.

Magnum:

You are exactly correct. When I attempted to sell my home in 2003, I found people were having trouble getting financing and then, they were able to get a down-payment with zero percent down. This has been a "depression" from the Bush years. Although, Reagan was really the impetus for this mess. People who belong to the Tea Party are merely followers, of the almighty dollar. They do not have the intelligence to think outside the wallet. Heaven forbid, they should help another human being. After all, the Tea Party is, the only group of people, who actually work and contribute to society. Frankly, I do not know how the rest of the people of the United States, existed until the Tea Party puppets organized and began espousing their philosophy, regarding Social Security and Medicare. They got theirs, why should anyone else get a "free" ride?"

Posted by Job Seeker:

"The death of FDR had alot to do with the end of the depression".

Actually, if you study your history, FDR's death was on April 12th, 1945, just a few weeks before the surrender of Nazi Germany.

Posted by Solutions539:

"Where were you when Bush was in office for 8 years, turning a surplus into the biggest debt black hole ever in history. President Obama is trying to clean up Your Republican mess and your answer to fix everything is to" (obstruct everything that the Democrats would like to do and) "let the Republican/Tea Bagger Party in power again. Who do you think is that dumb?"

What he said!!!

What are you high-end stock broker types going to do if we fall into another recession and our government, in its infinite wisdom, restricts short-selling again? What we need now is a law demanding serious penalties for attempting currency flight offshore, along with cutting-off most trade with China and re-imposing steep tariffs on a whole bunch of other cheaply-made foreign products that are driving down our wages here.

Go Democrats in 2012, let's throw that tea overboard just like our ancestors did!!! Wealth addiction with a limited money supply is no bettor for us than crack addiction is.

hs321 -

Your description of the political economy of the 1920's fails to account for a number of quite significant factors. Using it as a yardstick for current policy fails.

Here's why:

- The United States after WWI was the largest creditor nation in the world. Repayment of war loans and indemnities poured capital into the country.

- The United States, which had suffered far less in population loss than the major participants in WWI, not only had a newly-trained and more educated workforce after the war, but also was enjoying an additional population boom caused by European immigration. This in turn not only fueled consumer spending, real estate sales and housing construction, but also supported substantial industrial plant development and increased manufacturing.

- U.S. exports skyrocketed for a time, replacing war-ravaged industrial plant internationally, supplying raw and processed agricultural output, and offering high-demand consumer goods at competitive prices (especially shoes and textile goods). This was helped, in part, the expanded U.S. merchant navy that had grown considerably during the war and expanded even after the Armistice through 1920 - all supported by government construction contracts.

- Foreign investment in the U.S. escalated steadily, especially by British, Dutch and French capitalists, who saw the U.S. as a "safe harbor" for their interests. World War II proved them prescient.

Also spurred by civilian adaptation fo technolgies driven by wartime, innovation in electronics, transportation, metallurgy, textiles, medicine, education and other areas added to economic activity throughout the decade. One reason government taxes were relatively low at the time was that government revenues were very strong.

But there was a worm in the apple, too. More than one, indeed.

The first one was Warren G. Harding himself. He only headed the second-most-corrupt Presidential Administration in U.S. history. (The most corrupt in terms of senior officials and cabinet members doing time in the graybar hotel was the Reagan Administration.) Still, as the Teapot Dome scandal deepend, Harding fortuitously died in is private rail car. To this day it's a mystery whether he was killed, died of natural causes, or killed himself.

Further, the lax government oversight in particular of the financial marketplace brought doom down on the whole country. While the Depression was triggered by events overseas, the American collapse was caused by too much personal and business debt (sound familiar?), the collapse two years previously of the agricultural sector (a corollary to the housing bubble beginning to break in mid-2006), and inadequate regulation of banks, insurance companies, and stock traders (sound familiar?)

The U.S. had it's "roaring '90's" that ended in the 2000-2001 dot-com bubble and brought recession with it. The Bush years did not in any significant way compare with the "Roaring '20's" except in its serious structural flaws. And your effort to parallel policies of the two different eras only works in terms of their underlying structural flaws.

I just need the press to control wall street a little longer with the negative "ifs" "maybe's" and "could's" - along (of course) with Obama continuing to flap his mouth and the Libs constantly berating things.

I can only afford to buy stocks a bit at a time - and the bargains ARE out there!! So you guys keep it up till about Novemer 2012 when this administration is finally once and for all done with America!!

I should be 'stocked' up by then :)

This is what happens when we have fiat money. No value, no confidence, easily manipulated by those who control the supply. I called bush's TARP a fiasco and a failure 2 years ago when I said we are in for a double dip. TARP was only intended to keep the 'books' solid in order to continue paying high executive salaries and bonuses. Transfer of wealth?

During WWII, we were a total wartime economy. They made pennies out of steel because copper was so expensive. It was a time of great sacrifice by ordinary Americans. Everything was rationed, even food. Such sacrifice would never be tolerated in today's spoiled rotten selfish society. Hell, I'm guilty of this. I thought I hit the jackpot when the vending machine gave me two bags of chips for the price of one.

Unfortunately Politics cant be removed from economics so this discussion has become far to much of a smear fest. As for the economy, it is very likely that things will get worse before they will get better and few in Washington have the courage to do what is necessary. Basic econ principle is that the nations income is equal to consumption plus investment plus government spending (we wont go into imports and exports) If the consumer wont consume because he has to much debt, or the business wont invest because it has no confidence in the economy, then the government MUST SPEND. I say this with a caution though because just simply spending wont fix the problem as was stated before by the creator of the new deal and in many ways will hurt people worse. What needs to happen is to hack and slash at the programs that are A. Growing Government B. Have very small marginal utility C. Enticing people to not be participants such as career welfare earners, career unemployment recepients, heavy handed regulations that send business overseas. I honestly hope that the Government continues to spend but in a responsable way that can both reduce our rampant deficit as well as stimulate the economy but the way things are moving in washington right now? I am polishing up my shotgun to defend myself from the hungry hordes.

this has got to be Obamas fault ...G W B and his regime got out just in time

First off, if there had been no WWII, the recovery would have eventually happened anyway. It was working that way slowly, and the dip in government support caused the second dip in unemployment.

Second off, unless anyone has some secret knowledge about a new war somewhere that will get our factories up and producing materials that we can SELL, the WWII comments are moot. The president has been trying to do the next best thing by empowering start ups with things like new green energy. Investing for a longer term stability. The government will either have to spend, like FDR did, or not spend, like Hoover didn't, and watch unemployment continue to climb forever.

Finally, since this is a global issue now, and not a local one, we can't expect the sort of help we got in the depression. No one is going to come to us to build things for them. They will all be trying to do the same thing we are: build their way out of the mess by diverting public funds.

It's amazing that so many people can't just follow the logic of the situation and see all this. Unless we spend, we will never pay the debt down, because there will be no revenue. If we don't increase taxes, there will be no short term way to spend. If we don't put people back to work, using every dirty nationalist trick we can think of, we will settle into what Russia has become: a mediocre group, run by organized crime, drinking themselves to death.

I suspect we no longer have the brains and guts to get ourselves out of the mess, so I'm looking forward to post collapse America with a great deal of disgust and trepidation.

We have lived, as a nation, far beyond our means and the message is, for the foreseeable future, that we will be forced to live beneath our means as this debt is paid. ~ Ron Paul

Ya can't argue this logic!

Our economy will collapse. It has to. The burden of debt we have allowed for decades and the weight of unsustainable entitlements and social programs is too great. While we concentrate on the $14.6 TRILLION Dollar National Debt we forget to realize this is just the tip of the iceberg. The $55 TRILLION Dollar Total US Debt is more daunting. The 800 pound gorilla is obviously the nearly $116 TRILLION Dollar Unfunded Liabilities. As much as we want to ignore this, we can't.

THIS IS DEBT!

This is the debt the government has created by borrowing from itself. Combine this massive debt with the ongoing debts the individual States are crippled with and the ultimate result is very easy to see. For nearly 100 years we have allowed these burdens to be placed on us in the name of government responsibility and honesty. Neither of which have occurred. The fault is two-fold, a criminal, corrupt government and a populace preoccupied with our own prosperity. As the Baby-boomers begin their exodus into retirement these entitlements will strain and obviously collapse also. No one can even imagine a way of repaying this debt.

As a nation we will be forced into severe austerity and deficit reducing policies. This can no longer be ignored. The global economy demands it. Western markets are unable to sustain their own massive debts and China can only emerge if the rest of the world emerges. The USA having become a consumption based economy was the driving engine in the past, this was cleverly disguised as just more debt creation as we leveraged earnings against debt such as credit, home equity and future valuations of our homes. These have all been wiped out. Today we see the market crashing, lower by almost 400 points, AGAIN. The banks are once again collapsing. The Federal Reserve has extinguished its ability to monetize debt any further. Manufacturing is falling globally. Consumer confidence is at historic lows. Uncertainty about taxes, regulations and more government intrusion will be the final nails in the coffin bearing the American economy.

As daunting as Dr. Paul's quote above is, it should be a guiding light for us for the future. It will be a bitter pill to swallow for quite some time, but we can hopefully use it to return our great Republic back to solvency and ultimately profitability. This will however, require tremendous change. There will be significant resistance to much of this change but it must be allowed. The first change that needs to happen is the rejection of Socialism Progressivism. This is the main cause of our once great economies collapse. A Federal Constitutional Republic has no purpose for Progressivism. Its burden is too great as is evidenced in the European Union. The TRUE free-market must be allowed to create commerce. Our government has not, is not and never will create profitable commerce, better known as jobs. Now, is an opportune time to restructure our economy and government to the way it was intended with minor improvements.

The main effort must be placed on restoring our once profitable long-term domestic exportable manufacturing industries.

Trade agreements MUST be reformed. NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT and the WTO need to be dismantled and renegotiated in a FAIR manner. There is nothing FREE about our current trade agreements. We DO pay duties, fees, and tariffs abroad. Most of these are cleverly disguised as VAT or consumption taxes. We have no such benefits on our imports.

Our criminal personal and corporate tax system MUST be totally reformed. Not just selective industry specific elimination of loopholes, exemptions, transfers and other abuses. The whole tax system MUST be eliminated. 71,684 pages and 1,120 different forms in our tax code can only create abuse, avoidance and evasion. This can no longer be allowed. Americans are burdened with dozens of taxes from Federal taxes to cell-phone usage taxes. Most people don't even know when they are paying taxes. Either a Flat-Tax with a secondary VAT or consumption tax or an even simpler Fair Tax must be adopted for EVERYONE without caveats. Personal AND corporate taxes must be simplified and made fairer. When ANY system is as massive and convoluted as our current tax system, abuse can and will occur.

Regulations MUST be reined in. It is estimated that commerce is burdened with over $1.7 TRILLION Dollars in regulatory costs every year. This is inconceivable. A second "Grace Commission" that Reagan created in 1982 must be recreated to focus on exposing the TRILLIONS of dollars in waste, fraud and abuse in our government. Federal, State and Local. This will take time but once the collapse begins, we will have time. We argue the ridiculous "Jobs Bill" which is just $timulu$ II and condone an ongoing $500 BILLION Dollars in waste, fraud and abuse in Medicare. We allow over $200 BILLION Dollars in government redundancy, as reported by the GAO, while we argue over $20 BILLION Dollars in deficit reduction. Idiotic is too nice of a term for this.

Unions MUST become industry supportive rather than destructive. What good is union intervention when it contributes, along with the above factors, to our jobs and businesses leaving to friendlier offshore havens?

Finally, we MUST promote the only true globally necessary industry we have right now. ENERGY! Regardless of economic situations the world still needs energy. We are the most energy resource rich nation in the world. China is using its $2.7 TRILLION Dollar International Investment Fund to acquire vast amounts of energy for its current and future needs. We can be capitalizing on this and other global energy needs. Yes, we can be encouraging Clean Energy technologies but we all know it will be decades before it is economically feasible. We have virtually millions of jobs associated with energy, or closely related to it, that we can be creating RIGHT NOW. We have an estimated 1.8 TRILLION Barrels of shale-oil waiting to be extracted. We ARE the United States of America, we can and must make it affordable and safe to use this wealth of energy to our benefit. Natural gas, coal and nuclear energy MUST be expanded and exploited to help create jobs, commerce and to reduce our massive debts.

Unless we start thinking way out of the box we will be in for a decade’s long recovery that may never allow us to enjoy anywhere near the wealth and standard of living we are accustomed to. Dr. Paul is right. We do have to accept we will live below our means in the future. What we have to decide is how long do we want to live that way before we unleash the free-market that is the cornerstone of our economy's success? The longer we wait, the more difficult it will be. The time to decide is now.

If not we may very well be comparing notes with Greece, Spain, Italy and the other failures of Progressivism.

Part Two -

Bringing Americans to their knees with a bigger crisis!

BO has almost completed his promise of "Fundamentally Transforming America" and it has taken less than 3 years. You really got to admire his commitment and laser focus.

jac, if there had been no WWII, then there wouldn't have been a Marshall Plan. Ergo, WWII ended the Great Depression.

I said, per se, WWII didn't end the Great Depression. I stand by my post. The others here were claiming that the government spending on WWII alone is what brought us out of the depression. Not true. WWII left Europe and Japan in ruins. The US had no competition. Had we not gotten involved via the Marshall Plan after the war ended, the recovery could not have taken place. Geez, I didn't think it was that hard to understand. Doh!

WWII didn't directly get us out of the Great Depression. It was the boost to the manufacturing sector of the US economy that came as a result of WWII. It boosted our exports and our jobs and brought a lot of money INTO the USA.

Since NAFTA and the WTO Free Trade agreements went into effect, that manufacturing has been outsourced to China and other parts of the world. This time, instead of increasing our exports, we've greatly unbalanced our economy by importing much more than we send out, thereby shifting the wealth AWAY from the United States.

The New Deal did not propel us out of the depression, increased demand for our goods did in spite of the additional spending on the New Deal. That series of programs was passed in 1933, and the economy still retreated for years to come.

Until Obama and the democrats realize that the only way out of this is to increase our production here in the United States, and to balance the ratio of imports vs exports, no spending measures or tax increases are going to work.

robiscoole

It never made the markets recover?

What in the world are you talking about the dow has gained 3000 pts. since the beginning of the recession. Get a clue. If these businesses would have started spending when they recovered we would be a hell of alot better off right now, with lower unemployment. Put the politics down and get a clue. An economics class would not hurt either.

I highly recommend you try using common sense instead of listening to economists, who lately seem to have a worse record than weathermen. The speculation spending on Wall Street has been nothing short of insane for the last couple of years. The Dow is currently about 2500-3000 points higher than the combined value of the stocks....prepare for a crash.

Junicon

pjam09 The Dems haven't learned a thing so Republicans and the Tea Party are our only hope.

This mess started at the end of the Bush administration. The economic collapse happened after 8 years of a republican president and after the republicans had controlled congress for 6 of the previous 8 years.

This mess is a direct result of policies implemented in the 8 years preceding Bush in conjunction with the two wars Bush started. Repealing Glass Steagall in 1998 paved the way to the bank bailout....CRA's mandates lowering the lending criteria for Fannie and Freddie paved the way to the horrible investments the banks made and the national risk to the savings of everyone....the WTO and Free Trade agreements in the early-mid 90s paved the way to long term unemployment and a staggering trade deficit.

Econstudent,

Great post in 1.47.

In theory, I also support government spending during a downturn, but I have so little faith in our government today that in practice I'm against giving them another penny. If Obama would do like Clinton when he had Gore work with the Republicans to make government more efficient, it would go a long way towards restoring my faith in government. Unfortunately, I don't think he is another Clinton...

Not the kind of news that the unemployed wants to read. It's getting worse and worse every day, and according to the report we should expect a recession like the one in the 30's, though I suspect this one will be even worst. Back in the 30's we didn't have the kind of debt to foreign governments that we have now, and there was lots of industries around. Not today. All industry and middle management departments have been outsourced. There's nothing today except service jobs, and without other kind of jobs around there's hardly any money to use the services. We're doomed. It's times like these that I feel thankful of having trusted in my Lord Jesus Christ. He comforts us with the kind of comfort that really helps. He is an ever present help in times of danger. Though the economy continues on its down-slope to recession, we will rejoice in the Lord of our salvation. Glory to His Name!

Linda, I really would have to question the scope of your education?

Well said Markmich.

We're adding to this unsustainable debt daily and our congress is still quibbling about $1.5 billion for energy efficient cars? Our president wants to pass out more money to companies like Solyndra and unions after it was an abject failure 2 years ago? We're currently paying 10% of our national income toward "debt maintenence" and there are actually people out there that think we should spend MORE?

When people in the us have no money to spend on "things" long enough, then the producers of "things" can't sell 'em. Don't give a damn whether it's Europe, China, or the used to be planet Pluto. These nations people only buy mostly bare necessities, whereas Americans, when they have money to spend buy just for the sake of buying. What we are seeing now is a ripple effect of "thread bare" and empty US pocketbooks. American consumers have lost their jobs, (those who haven't are fearful they will) had their homes foreclosed, watched their government help their robbers, and generally told to go to hell by their leaders, especially the US congress. Add to all this, their country is conducting 2 wars, aiding in another, and seemingly shopping for others while the Fed is looking for ways to support higher prices and lower interest for speculators. Goddamn! We should be in both economic and mental depression.

EconStudent,

I don't believe I've ever heard of "a nation's income". Could you supply a definition? If you mean it's just "government spending plus consumption plus investment", then I don't understand why anyone would care what "a nation's income" is.

Because that's how you get out of a depression, Joe. EVERYONE knows that.

I wonder how long its going to take them to understand that we are not heading into "Act II" of the recession, we still haven't gotten out of "Act I" yet!

Monkey@Keyboard,

Even though many believe it, your post that the depression was ended by WW II just isn't correct. The standard of living declined until the end of WW II. Yes, the unemployement rate went down - how could it not with 10 million men in uniform?

But if you measure prosperity by consumption, the American standard of living went DOWN until after WW II. This should not be a surprise. No cars were manufactured. Food and gasoline were rationed! National savings declined.

Real prosperity returned after WW II when the government quit running industry.

"You could look it up." - Casey Stengel

Fear central every thing is fear laden. So what if the recession is coming. Americans survived the Great Depression.

Like FDR said "the only thing to fear is fear itself". Every Pundit and Politico is full of the doom and gloom.

Humans survived in the dark, when they couldn't see their hands in front of their faces. Are we that weak now?

If we are we are going "backwards" not forwards then we deserve what ever happens to us from this point forwards.

I personally am sick of the " DOOMS DAY FORECASTS". Either we will survive as a species or not!

The alternative is being with the "maker" anyway so, what the problem?

Oh, I know "everyone wants to go to heaven but, is afraid to go"...I get it!

Ron - Which occupant in the GOP clown-car would you suggest? Pee Wee Herman has more credibility than any of those losers.

Toasty McGrath

Because that's how you get out of a depression, Joe. EVERYONE knows that.

You need to stop believing in Keynesian economic theory because it has never been shown to actually work. Everyone does not know that spending gets a country out of a depression, especially when the majority of that spending is overseas.

If it did work, than Stimulus I would have worked, which, it absolutely did not and led to this coming crash. If TARP and ARRA did not pass, we'd have seen a higher unemployment rate and a sharper dip in the economy, but without government intervention, the economy would have rebounded. Due to the uncertainty around the massive debt and taxation that is threatened, those programs out of control spending have exacerbated the situation and the next 'dip" is going to be worse.

It never made the markets recover?

robiscoole...well maybe not coole, as the market did not fully recover. In October of 2007 the DowJones Ind was very close to 14,000 (13,930.01 actually), the best it has been ever since is in May of this year when it hit 12,569.79. The low point was 7,062.93 back in February of 2009. At that time, quite a lot of soothsayers said that the market would come back somewhat, but then dive to numbers not seen since 1958. Hope they were not correct.

mygirl1:

Obama could turn this around by the next election and probably get re-elected for it but he would have to abandon his base.

Open up the Oil and Gas fields and invest in a couple new refineries in someplace that isn't in a flood zone. Announce to the WORLD that we are going to be ENERGY INDEPENDENT in five (5) years or less!

That would IMMEDIATELY make the world price of oil fall like a rock! It would be a tax free pay raise to everyone since everyone uses ENERGY in one form or the other 24/7... Put our oil on a prorated scale such that as our production increases it is weighted against OPEC prices and lowered for OUR use. Do that until we are independent and then we should be buying oil at under $30/barrel! The true cost of oil, after a reasonable profit, is SOUTH of $30/barrel!

It would also create thousands of JOBS immediately and over time create over a MILLION JOBS! With money in their pockets people will begin consuming again and that will open the door for people to start manufacturing here to fill the demand. As manufacturing comes on line go back to quotas and tarrifs to protect our manufacturing base.

With the exception of investing in refineries, everything else is just paper work... Obama could do it and should do it if he had half a brain... But, sadly, he is too much of a Community Organizer Ideologue and won't.

The country forgot and expelled the God that made it great. Is it any wonder that The Lord has forgotten America now and is letting it go down the drain? Dishonesty and boundless greed has been the downfall of the country. America hasn't been competitive in the global market for a long while, and now we're seeing the consequences. Atheism has made us free--"free to fall by the sword, famine and plague", as the Bible says. Just remember what happened to the nation of Israel in Old Testament times, when it abandoned its God, and its God abandoned it to fall in the hands of their enemies. Let's go back to the God of our salvation before it's too late!

Altman was referring to the fact the global downturn of the 1930s technically included two U.S. recessions, from 1929 to 1933 and again from 1937 to 1938. U.S. unemployment peaked at over 20 percent in the 1930s, according to historical estimates, and did not decline significantly until factories began gearing up for World War II.

What a crock of sh!t, the Global Great Depression started in 1929 and ended for the US 1939.

President FDR's "New Deal to the American People" was a dismal failure as an attempt to spend money that no one had to create Jobs.

These are the reasons that the dates 1929 to 1939 are important: Germany, Italy, Japan emerged from the Global Great Depression years before the US, by: 1. Nationalizing All of their Industry., 2. Creating a Political Labor Union closely tied to their Political Parties., 3. Building up their Militarises using the Nationalized Industry, then using their Military to obtain critical War Materials, to the extent that the US, England and France placed Sanctions and Embargoes against them; which were meaningless as the US was still going around with Battlerams manufactured from 1911-1917 until most were destroyed at Pearl Harbor (1941), and a "Peacetime" US Military that was crippled by significant Budget Cuts until 1941 (reason the peacetime US Military was running around with World War I helmets and bolt action rifles).

By increasing their Militarises, Germany, Italy, Japan increased their Nationalized Industry Manufacturing demands as more of everything (especially large weapons systems) were needed, their Unemployment decreased to almost nothing; resulting in their escape from the Global Great Depression years before the US, Britain and France. The French claimed that Hitler had violated the Treaty of Versailles by increasing Germany's Military, Hitler said he did not sign that, and this was a different German Government, so the Reparations of paid by Germany to France of the Treaty of Versailles was null and void also.

Years after the successes of Hitler, Mussolini, and Hirohito getting their Nations out of the Global Great Depression, President FDR copied their success by: Nationalizing All US Industry, Suspending All US Labor Union Activities (suspected Axis Sympathizers of Mussolini as "Italian Organized Crime" later proven during the US Labor Union Violent Strikes (Riots, Fire bombing, Beatings, Arson, Sabotage, Murders, etc.) during the Liberations of Sicily and Italy), Started to Sell the War Materials manufactured by US Nationalized Industry to England from 1939 to 1941; this is why the Year 1939 is so important as the "Official" End of the US Great Depression and not US entry into WWII, 1941; Universal Health Care for All US Citizens that got the Insurance Corporations (also suspected Axis Sympathizers as "Italian Organized Crime") out of the Medical Profession, this then gave the US Citizens more money instead of paying the Insurance Companies high Insurance Premiums (to pay for the Insurance Companies Payrolls), to do this today is what Senator Kennedy wanted, as this would decrease the costs for Medical Treatments by 80%, this would also get today's Insurance Corporations out of Medicare, as they are overcharging (Fraud) the US Taxpayers to make profits of $17 Billion to $18 Billion per year.

The other reason 1929 to 1939 was important was because the US Never really got out of the Great Depression, "recovered", as temporary measures were created that actually caused the US Great Depression to be prolonged like temporary construction jobs, Works Progress Administration (aka the Work Projects Administration, WPA), etc. again spending money no one had, "Tax the Rich" to pay for someone else's job, causing the Rich to flee the US just like many Rich British, Irish, etc. fled to the Colonies to escape the extreme British Taxes and Debtors Prisons (if you refused to pay the extreme British Taxes as well as your Business Confiscated and auctioned), then the "Middle Class" (what was left of them) to end up paying for the poor; example: Taxpayer Job, $100 per month, taxes $10, the $10 does not pay for the $100 per month (back then $0.10 was a lot of money backed by Gold and Silver; as Gold and Silver Certificates (aka US Dollars), coins actually worth their weight in Silver, Nickel, Copper or gold coins.).

The biggest factor that stopped the Causes of the US Great Depression were the US Laws, 1933, that made Illegal the Causes of the 1907 Depression and 1929 to 1939 Great Depression; it took over 7 years for these US Laws to start affecting the US Economy. It was from 1907 to 1933 that the US Congress attempted harsh Regulation that failed to stop the Causes, so they finally made the Causes Illegal in 1933. These US Laws worked from 1933 till 2000, until they were eliminated in 1999; it took 9 years for the results of eliminating these US Laws to explode the US Economy, as the current $60-100 Trillion USD "Global Economic Crisis" consisting of the "Mortgage Crisis"*, "Wall Street Crisis"*, "Financial Crisis"*, "Banking Crisis"*, "Credit Crisis"*, etc..

*Same things happened during the start and during the 1929-1939 Great Depression.

The main reasons that I know what happened, was from 1990 I wrote a Research Paper to US Government (updated 1993, 2009, 2011) reporting what I had seen Worldwide to improve the US. In 1999 to 2000 when the US Eliminated the US Laws that made Illegal the Causes of the 1907 Depression and 1929-1939 Great Depression, I already knew what was going to happen; so as people started to make Billions from Millions, and Trillions from Billions, I saw my own opportunity to make a Million USDs to start my own Business since my US Military Career was threatened with a Reduction In Forces (RIF) of the US Military (the Gutting of the US Military and US Intelligence Agencies, creating massive US Unemployment as less US Manufactured Products, Goods, and Services required by the hundred million US Civilians of the Defense Industrial Complex (they were getting laid off too)) and this worked, so I invested my $1 Million to start my own Business. The person that loaned me $1 Million made $11 Million from my investment (not including the $1 Million invested, I got the $1 Million from the $11 Million), after taxes. So Carol made $10 Million by investing (risking) $1 Million (All of her money plus her Inheritance). Of course this investment was not a risk, as being Guaranteed by US Laws (1999 and 2000) that eliminated the US Law to prevent the Causes of previous Depressions.

I did not include all of the researched details above.

I have been waiting for President Obama to reinstate the US Laws to make Illegal the Causes of the previous and current Depression to figure out whose side he is on. By not reinstating the US Laws, I know who's side he is on, so I started to do the research. His receiving $1 Billion USDs of Unlimited Corporate Campaign Contributions from the Insurance Industy, Medical Device Industry, Pharmaceuticals Industry, for passage of the Health Care Reform Act, and the US Citizens getting the Big Bill of $1.7 Trillion USDs was the final proof.

If these US Laws are not reinstated soon, the next "Crisis" of $54.6 Trillion USDs will permanently sink the US into a "Supernova" Depression (term I used in my 1990s Research Paper to US Government (Updated 1993, 2009, 2011)). The indicators are already starting with Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Britain, Italy, France. Because the Chinese retained their versions of the US Laws that made Illegal the Causes of previous Depressions, they are immune from the Causes, unlike the US and most US Allies that removed their versions of these Laws.

Wilberta Berry - So what if the recession is coming. Americans survived the Great Depression.

Depression, not Recession, as we are already arseholes and elbows deep in a Depression, same Causes, identical indicators, same results, etc.. And many Americans did NOT survive the Great Depression.

How about contributing something useful, unlike your numerous previous posts that I copied and pasted to notepad and saved in my computer.

PappaDave-956353 - Open up the Oil and Gas fields and invest in a couple new refineries in someplace that isn't in a flood zone. Announce to the WORLD that we are going to be ENERGY INDEPENDENT in five (5) years or less!

Automatic Fail. As most of the world already knows what the US has, and does not have. As most US Oil was depleted during the Oil Rushes at Texas, California, Oklahoma, etc.. With these empty Oil Wells now being squeezed of dangerous methane (more harmful to the ozone layer than CO2) aka Natural Gas thru "Fracking" that is causing massive underground pollution (poisoning) of underground rivers, streams, wells, etc. used as drinking water.

Most of the world also knows that the US will never incorporate the real Alternative Energies (especially the Nations that have been using these Alternative Energies for decades for Fuel and Electricity). And that the US does not have the Political, Nation Will, or Resolve to maintain the US reliance of Oil dependence like the Chinese and Russian Federation have to expand their Oil Sources and other Natural Resources Sources worldwide.

Atheism has made us free--"free to fall by the sword, famine and plague", as the Bible says. Just remember what happened to the nation of Israel in Old Testament times, when it abandoned its God, and its God abandoned it to fall in the hands of their enemies.

So our "all loving God" is all-loving as long as you love him first, huh? Some salvation.

Do all you people taking what Nancy Pelosi calls the people who are following the tenets of the Tea Party (teabaggers) know what you're really saying? You might want to look that up before you throw it around so cavalierly. It's actually quite offensive, which is why it can raise the hackles of those in the Tea Party so quickly. If you want a real discussion, don't offend those with whom you want that discussion before it even starts. Just a thought. ;)

All we have to do is stop supporting other countries before our own. Buy American, not everyplace-else-ian. Sure it's harder to find - but it's not always more expensive and, even if it is, in the long run, it's a LOT cheaper. If you know of companies sending jobs overseas and it's at all possible, let them know that you're buying from their competitor for that specific reason. Pride in America. Show it. Believe it. It'll pay off in so many ways.

Joe,

Take your thought a bit further! You are so right, This thought is nowhere near any of the politicians electoral plate! how does one ever get elected with that mantra?

If everyone who posted here read what was posted, stepped back and analyzed it as a whole, and read the truth in the writing, they would see it's not Republican vs Democrats. The parties are both to dedicated. It's Tea Party vs status quo.

Everyone wants to change without sacrifice! IT AIN"T GOING TO BE EASY.

Joe,

Don't stop to explain anything to Toasty. She has a hit-n-run agenda. I can't say why she does what she does nor the explanation behind her motives. Perhaps, years from now, we can sit and have a honest debate between those of us that actually believe in debate, consensus and honesty. She isn't capable of that with her hit-n-run style.

The rest of us can that would like to dig Keynes sorry English ass up and slap his corpse in the face just for the satisfaction of doing it can discuss his fallacy with the those that actually know what Keynesian policy reallly means. Toasty can't even begin to explain John Keynes. All she knows is what she believes and tosses out what she thinks are stingers against anyone who disagrees with her political philosophy.

It is almost comical to me! Do you remember the recent commercial when the King ask his advisors what he should do and one of his trusted minions slapped a bag of coins on the table? LOL that is Keynesian Economics personified. Throw money at it! The real irony is that is was a slight, an insult against the very idea of tossing money at the problem.

What most of us know is throwing money at a problem never fixes anything, it just delays it. The really scarey part of the world we currently live in is that we can't stop the decline not of just the US but the world.

First off, I'm a dude. Second off, I haven't seen you OR Jon present any evidence whatsoever to support your assertions.

Oh my goodness! It was a line I tossed out to trolling line and you bit! I almost feel like that guy on animal planet Anthony Wade! I haven't had this feeling in my groins since I caught a 6 lb Bluegill on a spinner reel with an artifical bait in Normady Lake in 1980.

Well you want to prove me wrong? That you aren't a hit-n-run poster? Then respond to the post I left you about that BS you said about hate crimes. You do that and I will be MORE than willing to back up what I said here.

Done. Your turn.

FAILED!!!

Prove your point that hate crimes are only about and I quote, "a hate crime when it constitutes an act of intimidation against an already-persecuted demographic in addition to the crime itself."

All you did was post a link to the law but you didn't read it did you? It's the "already-persesecuted" part you don't get.

Try one more time! Even if you fail, I'll post my response about John Keynes tomorrow. But of course it isn't just about Keynes but we can discuss that later.

John A.-400474 #'s 1.40/1.43: Factual, articulate and absorbing. Have been looking for you for some time now. You are a pure pleasure to read as usual. Always on the scout for your posts. Sincerely

Look dude, if you're just pulling out excuses...

John A.-400474,

Thank you for the two best posts on this thread (by far). In fact, yours are two of the best posts I have read since this whole mess started in 2008. Americans have an unfortunate tendency to forget their history, or worse, to let idiot ideologues rewrite it. Our failure to recognize the importance of the financial regulations passed by FDR in response to the Great Depression led to their repeal in the years between 1980 and 2000, which in turn led directly to the crash of 2008. Our failure to employ FDR-style investments in infrastructure to pull the country out of our current "great recession" has led to our stalled recovery, and may lead to a second recession. The wealthy right wing in this country has waged a decades long campaign to repeal FDR's policies, from financial regulation to social security, and to smear his name, when in fact he was one of our greatest presidents. The campaign has worked, but not completely. As another of our greatest presidents said: "you can't fool all of the people all of the time." Thank you for being one of the "not fooled", and for sharing your wisdom with us.

NOW we really know what Obama meant by hope and change…Hope we Have some change left when he leaves office I guess….

JohnA - you and I are in basic agreement concerning FDR, but not with your last paragraph...

Passing the American Jobs Act now - and, hopefully, adding more to it than the President requested - will not only help stabilize and expand the American economy, there's a potentail for the U.S. helping to spare some other economies internationally from falling back toward the abyss.

First off we are in a situation partially ruled by euro economics and to a lesser extent global ones as well. If europe becomes toast it is unlikely that the US can do anything about it or contribute more to the IMF withoust affecting our own weak economy.

Second is that what obama proposes to spend money on falls much in the same line as what the 2009 stimulas proposed and didn't accomplish. Yes, I will grant that GDP increased quite well, but promptly fell off in 2010 and sputtered along ever since. I would imagine that obama would like to see the same type of boost in GDP in mid 2012 to proclaim that his plan was working and that he should be re-elected. Political theatre we don't need.

Third is that the immediate influx of money into the taxpayer pockets with a payroll tax reduction, SS tax reduction and extending the bush tax cuts across the board seems to have only resulted in the well off crowd to return to buying luxury goods again. Good for the makers of luxury goods.

It appears that the average consumer over borrowed prior to 2008 and is now reluctant to wantonly spend again, particulary when they see so much discord and lack of direction by congress and the obama administration. Who can blame us? Even the FED is reluctant to increase the money supply, inflation is now a risk the FED don't want to let loose. Our government and in particular obama has failed to present to business or the populace that the future will be better and a responsible and sustainable fiscal policy will be agreed on.

Fourth is that infrastructure jobs are not like turning on a light, There are a lot of government required regulations that have to be met before a project is begun. If a states DOT doesn't have everything already documented and planned for, but just awaiting funding job growth will be nill until existing contractors can't meet schedules, so no immediate new jobs here either, down the road probably depending on availability of funding. Timelines for schools it is even slower, although more jobs can be created simply because of the different trades involved.

I have always enjoyed manufacturing and commercial/industrial construction but know all to well the timelines involved in both initial planning and manpower scheduling. Sustained funding for infrastructure will rely on a far stronger economy than we have today or expected to have in 2012.

Obamas best bet at fast job creation would be to follow much in the same way FDR did. The jobs may only be temporary but they are jobs that really only require shovels, rakes and wheelbarrows/skidloaders. Cleanup and repair of national and state parks damaged by natural causes or just by age. Roadways partially damaged by natural causes are also a good candidate for immediate jobs. Of course these jobs are conditional on not requiring environmental and other studies to be done before work commences.

Job preservation, forget about it our present economy didn't and won't sustain it. Keynasian (1.8) and zandi (1.64) multipliers, forget them too, if they truly worked we should be rolling big time.

Posted by Joe:

"Until Obama and the democrats realize that the only way out of this is to increase our production here in the United States, and to balance the ratio of imports vs exports, no spending measures or tax increases are going to work".

You must have forgotten that a year ago, the Democrats had a bill heading through Congress to impose tax penalties on any American company attempting to export American jobs. Unfortunately, that was after Senator Kennedy's death, and the Republicants in the Senate voted in lockstep and by 41 votes out of 100 the bill was killed. So I believe that it is incorrect to suggest that President Obama and the Democrats are somehow oblivious to the problems caused by unfair allegedly "free" foreign trade and the practice of offshoring our jobs.

Furthermore, anyone who wants to heap all of the blame for the demise of American heavy manufacturing on labor unions has to also factor in the extra costs of complying with all of our environmental protection laws, as well as various policies undertaken by both our Fed, Treasury, and by China to manipulate both our currency and theirs. Our currency was manipulated several times to force it higher in value and the Japanese currency lower in value, to stimulate Japanese exports, and nowadays we whine and cry when the Chinese do the same thing to stimulate their own exports.

The real problem with the average American investing in our equities markets is the fact that both our own government and other world central bankers can at any time choose to make policy decisions that can have immediate ruinous effects on those investor that do not watch their money on an everyday basis. Yes, without a rapid about-face on free trade without restrictions, as well as tough sanctions against currency flight, and the imposition of single-payer health insurance nationwide, we may very well never fully recover, and in just another 38 years, our population is already forecast to increase by 50%, which means that just to continue the current status-quo of 16% U-6 unemployment, that our economy will have to grow by 80% in the next 38 years.

Since the Republicants can't bring themselves to make the right choices for the future of all Americans, we need to find someone willing to make the right choices for us all.

John A 400474

You miss some very important factors about the 1920's. First it started with a short, but very deep depression. This depression was brought on by several factors

1. Federal spending increased from $700 Million in 1916 to $18 Billion in 1919. NOTE: of that 18 Billion most was spent over seas, not in the US.
2. Taxes revenues were increased from $700 Million to 6.5 Billion in 1920.
3. Federal Spending was cut to $6.5 Billion in 1920, The cutting spending - meaning less orders for companies at the same time increasing their taxes by 20% was too much, so many businesses closed their doors.
4. Both Spending and taxes were cut for 1921, 1922, and 1923. Unemployment PEAKED at 9 - 12% (depending upon source) at the beginning of 1921 and returned to 1919 levels by 1923.

For those who don't understand. In 1936-37 Roosevelt raised taxes on the Rich to 78% and Raised the Capital Gains tax to 39% and raised corporate taxes to 15%. in 1938-39. Roosevelt maintained the 78% Rich tax, Cut Capital gains to 30% but raised corporate top rate to 16%.

The reason 1939 turned around was not the tax rates - it was the hostility factor. Once Germany became more aggressive, and finally invaded Poland, the allies were plenty glad to purchase our products (1930 tariffs and all) at any price US companies named. The name your price bonanza made companies profitable enough to over come the slave rate taxation.

Old Timer,Bill Clinton gave China favored trade status permanently,which lets them import to the U.S. at 2.6% tarriffs.We pay them 26% tarriffs to import.We do this in our "free" trade agreements all the time.My question is why?China has a law which states if it isn't made there,it can't be purchased there.Hince,we now have GM building cars on Chinese soil.Why can't the U.S. adopt the same guidelines?The answer lies in the fact that most corporations,and Congressmen,are sooo greedy!Many would sell out their own mothers.Greed will eventually kill the goose that lays the eggs.If you are paying attention to the little tidbits of news released,the bad times are coming about 2013,just after the next President takes office.Notice I said next?No amount of bottom feeders can keep Obama in office.If he sits another term,there is guaranteed to be a terrible civil war,with plenty of ethnic cleansing,including white trash.

Great points, srsmith, but unfortunately, we've mortgaged over 25% of our debt to the Chinese, so they own us.

SR Smith

Great post. I ran into a 47% fee on a bid selling US made goods to a US company for delivery in China. And that was after we proved that we made something different that what China made. If we couldn't prove it, we couldn't sell it.

trainsandboatsnoplanes Wrote,

So our "all loving God" is all-loving as long as you love him first, huh? Some salvation

God loved us even before we ever loved him. He is all compassion and love, he is long-suffering and patient, far more than we deserve. But he doesn't wait forever. Even he has to draw the line somewhere. When he notices that we are not going to change for the good, he let us to our own devices, and it's then that we fall. Hopefully we realize our mistake in abandoning him and come back and repent. If not, then we must suffer the consequences of our mistakes. But it is his Holy Will that we walk by his side, under his protection. Glory to His Name!

All we have to do is stop supporting other countries before our own. Buy American, not everyplace-else-ian.

Trade protectionism causes more harm than good, since then the other nations stop buying American technology and services in retaliation. Besides, most American companies are already under the control of foreign capital. The solution in my opinion is to trust with all our heart in Lord Jesus to guide us safely through these terrible economic times. He is an ever present help in times of danger!

I have yet to have ever seen Toasty post a logical and well thought out argument. It's like some kind of brain block or fog. I don't even think he is aware of it. He just keeps posting and posting, and nothing useful ever comes up.

THe real problem is not all the above. Its simple. Read this and then you will know. Search it and you will understand. Its understated. its CEO pay. thats the cause of all the ills and the bankstas. Break up the banks.

we can see what has happened to corporate performance in the last 45 years. In a study of 20,000 US companies from 1965 to date by Deloitte’s Center for the Edge (the Shift Index), we see a disastrous decline in performance overall in this peiod::

• The rate of return on assets of these firms has fallen by 75%.
• The life expectancy of these firm has fallen from around 70 years to less than 15 years, and is heading towards 5 years, unless something changes.

Meanwhile, on the right hand side, we can see what has happened to compensation. While corporate performance has been on this sharp decline, executive compensation has been increasing astronomically. Whereas in 1965, executive compensation was 24 times what the typical worker made,studies show that today executive compensation is a staggering 275 times what the typical worker makes.

In a more detailed study of the growth of U.S. executive pay during the period 1993-2003 by Lucian Bebchuk and Yaniv Grinstein, pay grew much beyond the increase that could be explained by changes in firm size, performance and industry classification. Had the relationship of compensation to size, performance and industry classification remained the same in 2003 as it was in 1993, mean compensation in 2003 would have been only about half of its actual size. In other words, executives were receiving increases in compensation that were twice what would have been justified by performance.

Meanwhile, during the period, compensation for workers has remained basically unchanged. Studies show that real average hourly earnings (excluding fringe benefits) now stand roughly at 1974 levels. Since the cost of health and education has been increasing rapidly, the actual standard of living of most people has been on the decline.

Don't believe anything that is saying Oh yeah the chinese or iranians or something. Its all here. its CEO pay. THese CEOs are selfish and incompentent and evil and out to destroy the middle class. They want a class system like india. Where they own it and everyone pays and lives day to day. They can get people to dance to there fiddle. FIght it.

Write to your congress person. https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml

He's not suggesting... he's telling you a fact of life that GOP likes to fight with the military... let's see... they get in for 2012.... which first?... Korean (nuclear weapons)... how about Iraq (nuclear weapons and risk to Israel)... the GOP will have their choice of "good" wars to fight... and we'll piss away our national resources fighting some dinky country... like the Afgan war (no way we are ever going to win that one)... and Iran (they continue to blow themselves up).... but man... Bush showed he was better than daddy!

Its not wars that end recessions. Its the huge government spending to build up Defense/Offense that does it. We like it because we can justify the expenditures for a war on the side of "good" instead of infrastructure spending, investing in education, etc, which we believe is wasteful. Hmmm. I guess we could have fought Hitler off with "tax cuts".

Here's a thought Kevin, how about maybe another country gets so despirate that THEY decide a war is a good thing? We've seen North Korea posturing to get foreign aid, so what's next if it stops coming? Answer, they may pick a fight with South Korea. How about another country seeing everyone else not having money, decides it's the perfect time to start a war? Iran is just itching to light up on Israel, so maybe they'll do it when the chips are down.

This is not a political issue, it's a historical issue and an issue growing out of a developing global crisis.

Hell Yes! Let's get our broomsticks and declare shenanigans!

I agree....who in the hell every concluded the recession ended in 2009????????? The new media is what's destroying this country along with other nations. They determine what the markets do by instantly posting news within a nano-second of it happening. They presently report absolutely nothing but bad news...perhaps if they looked a little harder they could find some positive things to report and in turn lift the spirits of people. We are what we're being spoon fed....OPEN WIDE NOW".

TVAR - You start by complaing that someone concluded the recession ended in 2009, then you go on to say you want to be told "positive things" by the media to "lift your spirits". Do you not understand that the fact you were "spoon fed" the "recovery" B.S. is now the reason you are surprised that all of the same problems still exist? "lifting spirits" doesn't change a damn thing, it just placates people into doing nothing.

• WAR HUH WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR?WELL People,that's what's going to happen to supposedly get us back on our feet, or totally destroy this country.Take your choice!
• TVAR, who said the recession ended in 2009?Morons who call themselves economists, and don't know their fat asses from a hole in the Ground, that's WHO!

Here's a thought JoeNY: if North Korea decides to start a war with S. Korea, then let S. Korea fight their own battles. Maybe we need to stop protecting Israel and them fight their own war. I'm as liberal as they come, but using wars as an impetus to economic recovery is NOT the answer, and if others decide to start wars, it doesn't mean we have to join in the fun.

HOPE & CHANGE?

Mmm... Mmm... Mmm...

Does anyone even "remember" the last time Obama, or any of his brain-dead, kool-aid drinking sheeple uttered that phrase?

Gee... does anyone wonder why?

How about that stupid, propaganda song used to INDOCTRINATE young, elementary school children?

Mmm... Mmm... Mmm...

Barack !

Hussein !

Obama !

Mmm... Mmm... Mmm...

Interestingly enough... no one has even mentioned them for years :-)

How is war the answer, we're already in two. As far as the recovery goes, this second recession is just fearmongering. Remember this, the DOW is made up of 'Globalized' companies, so it reflects world market stability more than US markets. After the fallout of the housing collapse settled, the markets recovered faster than they did after 9/11 (to pre-housing bubble levels that is). While the recovery is far from over, the volitility in overseas markets have given investors the jitters. Someone on Wall Street sneezes and there is a sell off. Things will calm down (hopefully without anymore 'political' intervention).

"Hope & Change" Huh?? Well, that sounded good back in 2008, but now that's changed to a whole LOT of "Hope", but not much "Change"!!

We are in three wars...do not forget the War on Drugs.

The problem is, speedy...you have to want to change...

Ky Engineer- "...using wars as an impetus to economic recovery is NOT the answer..."

I completely agree with you on that statement. The problem is a strategic one. IF we choose to have strategic command posts around the world we will be forced to protect our friends and interests. Take Taiwaan and Hong Kong for example. The Chinese want them, but we are watching them, so the opportunity isn't there (yet). If the US was to say "game off", I think within a few years there would be conflicts in many places.

Do we want to get involved, I hope not. I'm not impressed with the politicization of our military and having politicians use the military for press, attempt to control the military's actions, and using them as political pawns in their re-election campaigns. To me it's quite simple- If there is comes a time when we decide our national security is threatened use the military's complete strength to obliterate the enemy mercelessly and quickly, no worrying about what the "world" thinks, the polls, etc. Get the job done efficiently and effectively. Overwhelm the enemy and show them just how powerful we are. Once it's over (with an act of surrender, not a "well, I think we may be about finished over here" by us). Then we can assist the people remaining, but we draft up a payment plan for our assistance or our need to take care of the problem they presented. I'm absolutely fine with a repayment of oil for our armor.

No,we should cower down to other countries and just keep apologizing for America. If the liberals on this board are STILL too stupid to see how ineffectual, incompetent, inept, fake, corrupt and just downright stupid this shameful idiot of a president is, then you simply don't want to know. We are in a mess folks. And by most accounts there is no easy way out. In fact, there's no way out period without massive repercussions. The only thing the clown has done (by design I may add) is created the largest welfare state this nation has ever known. And now, low and behold he wants to push a "jobs bill" through the congress and spend a half trillion more dollars!! Do you idiot liberals not see anything wrong here? Why would you sell the same snake oil door to door when no one would buy it the first two times? This moron is the single most destructive force this nation has ever seen. And the short-bus liberals CONTINUE to carry his water. This is almost insane.

I don't recall the exact quote but it went something like this: We live in the greatest country on the planet... Won't you help me change it?

Can someone please explain why you would want to change the greatest country on the planet?

Let's see... We can make it like Greece or Italy... They seem to be doing the right things! How about France or the UK? Maybe we should just join the EU and change our currency to Euros!

Being so young, I believe Obama had his long range goal set on heading up the UN after he turned the USA into a socialist country...

Kevin Bitz,

Nice......FAILED ATTEMPT AT BUSH BASHING!!!!!!!!

Iraq: US Laws with Congressional Appropriations. 1998 H.R.4655, "Overthrow of President Hussein". AFTER all measures of H.R.4655 Failed, the US Congress used the Last Option to accomplish H.R.4655, the US Military by Declaring War at Iraq, with US Law 2002 Iraqi War Resolution with Congressional Appropriations.

At the very begining of President Bush's involvement Iraq and Afghanistan became UN Missions of Nation Building.

Afghanistan after the 9/11 2001 Attacks has similar US Laws with Congressional Appropriations.

What the H3LL does President Obama have to cover his arse, as US Laws with Congressional Appropriations prior to the First US Military Actions. With SOS Clinton two weeks after the start of the First US Military Actions, appologizing on behalf of President Obama for violating US Law that restricts the President's War Power, 1973 War Powers Resolution (48 hours, 60 days, 30 days). With the "intent" of the US Law being more important than President Obama's "interpretation". Making President Obama's US Military Actions as Commander In Chief, "ILLEGAL", "UNFUNDED", "WAR CRIMINAL" (no US Law Stating Overthrow Gaddaffi). And the International Court of Justice at the Hague determined that they could not go after President Clinton nor President Bush as they had the US Laws with Congressional Appropriations to protect them, and President Obama has nothing.

I think we have a huge labor force at our disposal who are already getting paid day by day.

Let's turn the Welfare and Food Stamp program into an entire Job Corps program and put them all to work. Those that don't WANT to work, don't get paid. Since they are ALREADY getting paid, with housing, food, and monies, we don't spend anything extra. For those on the system that don't WANT to work... we SAVE money by dropping them from the welfare program.

Now, what work can we do? There is plenty. We can clean up parks, do construction work, make roads, etc. And all at a savings!! We can even contract out the additional labor to corporations! I betcha we could even find something to do for blind and/or disabled persons!

Then we can start MAKING things in America again! We can build our CARS again! We can build our own computers! Build tractors! Build BUILDINGS!

Its been tried.Im for it if you will work BELOW min wage

Not much he can do. If you are going to suggest more drilling in the U.S., then you probably don't know that it will take around 15 years until we actually seen anything usable from it.

And by the way, did you know that more US oil was EXPORTED than imported this year? Interesting isn't it......even when production is ramped up, the oil companies will sell it overseas rather than bringing cost down here.......thank god we are subsidizing these poor companies :) They must be laughing their asses off all the way to the bank :)

Better yet: If we can't blame Bush for this economy, we can't blame Obama for Europe & Asia's economies either.

Or do you really think we have that much sway...?

And every year we push drilling off, it just adds to the worsening economy. Not a good excuse for not drilling.

Dude, domestic drilling will not have a significant impact, it's a finite resource and unless we get serious about a green economy, this won't change. Brazil changed their dependence on fossil fuels and implemented strategies twenty years ago that are benefiting them today. The oil companies have millions to invest in advertising to get you to believe that domestic drilling is the answer and its not. Uncontrolled speculation across the financial sectors started this collapse and it will continue unless governments take serious steps to deal with it - but they are in the pockets of the financial sector. The repeal of Glass-Steagall here started the snowball rolling...

Where are you from OL where I live they have been drilling nonstop since about 2000.

Oil is not the answer to everything! We need to start phasing oil out of our everyday use so we are not so dependent on it and invent something new. Why are we still using an idea/tech from 100's of years ago? We could be so much further without oil.

...but we know that oil companies will never let this happen.

The only ones who will profit from more drilling in the U.S. are the Oil companies, Americans won't see an improvement in their lives, let alone at the gas pump. Big Oil will continue laughing at the gullibility of Americans "all the way to the bank". Not to mention that in addition to Americans paying for it, the environment will continue to pay for it as well. The status quo is what led us to this point, and will lead us deeper into the abyss. What happened to American ingenuity and innovation? We need to develop clean technology, which will actually help Americans by creating new jobs.

Josh the US is actually drilling more wells than ever. The US now produces over 1/2 million bbl/day than 2 years ago primarily from the Baa-ken and Marcellus Shale fields. Most Americans don't realize the boom in oil production because republican radio/faux news lies about it as a campaign issue.

Quite amusing how people try to spread Faux News lies on other site. It only works at Faux News, not anywhere else. Gas price was over $3 a gallon since GWB been in office. I remember paying $40 for a full tank on a Nissan Sentra when it usually cost me $20 and that included a pack of smoke, a candy bar, and a bottle of soda.

Worst case scenario would be to let the GOP in the White House, knowing that they've obstructed so many legislated bill that would potentially help this economy. But, hey, those people don't see that and is still drinking that Tea Flavor Kool-Aid.

Folks! Drilling more oil is NOT the answer to our high gas prices. When oil is taken out of the ground or sea and shipped to storage or refinerys it HAS ALREADY BEEN SOLD ON THE OPEN MARKET! Read the lips--you could put oil rigs every three feet in the Gulf on on the land, no matter. It is sold by the oil producers ON THE OPEN MARKET TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER. We will NOT reap ANY benefits from it. It is useless prattle to think otherwise.

Linda - are you cognitively impaired or just completely happy to go about being ignorant of the most fundamental of concepts?

The oil market is a global market. You don't "keep oil at home" to keep prices down, as it's a global commodity. You can't lower gas prices in the US by keeping oil here any more than you can lower the price of a cheeseburger in england. Your ignorance is breathtaking.

The price of oil is based on global demand. Unless you're suggesting that the government fix prices for the US consumer. That last nation to try that was the USSR. I'm guessing that you lean to the right, so you're not actually suggesting we enact a communist system of state planned commodity prices are you?

That would be so awesome if you were.

You are no more entitled to a barrel of oil than any other person on the planet. You can have as much as you can afford. That is essentially the basis of capitalism and the free market. If you don't understand that then seriously, go get that GED.

What is it with all this drilling for oil? The real reason we don't drill for more oil here is because of the market, which says oil from the Middle East is cheaper and easier to get to, unless, of course,we want to give more subsidies to the oil companies.

It will not only lower gas prices but also will create tens of thousands of jobs! Real jobs too - not the temporary jobs that the Obama stimulus plans create only for construction unions - when there are any jobs created at all. It is reported that the Gulf lost a thousand jobs for each of the 8 rigs that were forced too leave the Gulf by Obama's moratorium when support companies were included as well as the money their famiies were spending. And this is factual - not the crapola that Obama minions vomit on us when they say "True jobs were lost but it would have been so much worse had we not spent the trillion (incl interest) on that stimulus.

Won't hear this on the lame stream media though - have to watch Fox News and especially Fox Business Network.

Oddly enough, there isn't anything near to a shortage in oil. It was ramped up for the last few years and probably ended up being funded by a few companies to boost their product, but even if we "Go Green," there are some major drawbacks.

For one, it costs about $40k ($60k without government subsidies) for a Gas/Electric car and the Batteries have a life expectancy of 5-7 years. Replacing said batteries starts to inch up in the tens of thousands of dollars which means when somone says it will "Pay for itself" they don't understand the idea of a negative cash flow investment.

Over-all, the ideas stated in everyday advertisement and media end up being more hurtful than helpful, drawing out pure negative or pure positive when there is always a balance between the two. Do I believe it's one person's fault? No, not at all. Although the idea that we're headed towards deeper unemployment when our (Documented) unemployment is in the 9.6% area, then yes, it sounds bad, however, considering our un-documented, real, unemployment is in about the 20% estimate, it seems like the original recession never ended.

All the more reason to start lending out money you have rather than money you wish you had, un-stated banks.

Focusing on oil is rather lame right now. We have oil, we have gasoline, it costs more but its there. We have food and yes, that too will cost more and already is. The real issue is lending and borrowing, global banking and fooling around with currencies and debts. Our problems are directly related to financial causes. The depression of the thirties was also financial and no amount of government tinkering will do anything until we begin to coin our own money, remove the thousands of regulations from federal down to local levels that hurt business, install our own monetary system (which, oddly enough, is already in place) and look nationally rather than globally.

It's all in the game! Now obama will come out banging + banging Congress a must pass STIM II ( THE UNION BILL) +(tax the rich) Tax reform bill. The Country no.... The World will go into a great depression unless Congerss PASS the bill, so obama can save the world. Yea!!!!!!!

The only reason Big Oil wants more domestic drilling is they wouldn't have to ship it as far. Pass the savings on to us? I don't think so...more profits for them. At least if you are a shareholder you can share some of the love..

Linda-1017427:

Please post a link to your claim we exported more oil than we imported!

We do export Natural Gas and we send some crude to Japan to be refined because the EPA won't license the building of new refineries.

Mav-3674058,

Well, you just restored my faith that there is some hope for the US. Unlike most of the not researched non factual emotive nonsense posted here.

You want to mention that most of the US Oil is low grade high sulfur content that requires lots of processing to get less barrels of gasoline than the high grade "sweet" crude Oil from the "Middle East" (including Africa (Libya), Asia, etc..). As most of the US high grade "sweet" crude Oil was depleted during the "Black Gold" Oil Rushes.

Most people will just ignore you (see number of votes for your post).

I have worked in the Oil Exploration and Recovery field for most of my life, and I can tell you for a fact that the "global commodity" argument is mostly a lie. The oil sold on the open global market is already owned by the oil companies that extract it from the ground. They have already paid whichever government (Alaska, Alberta, Saudi Arabia, etc.) for it as it comes out of the well, then sell it on the open market to refineries, owned by subsidiaries of these same oil companies, at overinflated prices, making huge profits, then selling the refined products to consumers at a further huge profit.

If the price were really based on supply and demand as these companies claim, then why is gasoline cheaper in the U.S. than it is in the rest of the world when the U.S. has the highest demand? I pay more for my gas than any U.S. citizen despite the fact that there are nearly 7 million (YES, 7 MILLION!) oil wells within a 4 hour drive of my home and it's only 5 hours to nearly a dozen refineries. The supply here is as much as 5 million barrels a day more than the demand, so why do I pay nearly $5/ gallon?

The "free markets" without strong regulation DO NOT work for the people. Anyone who has bothered to read or listen to any news for the past 4 years should know this.

If only there had been any Tea Party Representatives in any office for the last three years. Much to your chagrine it wasnt until the 2010 election that any Tea partiers had been elected. Tea Partiers have been in Congres for all of 9 Months now, and theres only 87 of them out of 535 Representatives.

I'm afriad your going to have to come up with another Scape Goat for the Last three years. Of course up until 2010 the Democrats had the House, Senate, and White House so I'm afraid two of those three years belong to the Democrats. You could even argue that it was the Democrats that have been in control from 2006 until 2010 since they had the House and Senate and Bush was prety Much a lame duck President for the last 2 years of his administation.

Even now the Democrats have the Seante and White House which is 2/3rds of the legislative/executive branch therefore 2/3rds of the responsibilty is Democrats.

Wow, In 2007 the economy was doing pretty well, what changed? 5 years of democrat control of both houses of Congress with a supermajority for two of those, 3 years of democrat control of all three branches of Congress. GOP control of one house of Congress for about 8 months and you blame the GOP. Take off your blinders. Bush and the republicans spent far too much money as well. There is blame enough to go around. To continue to blame republicans solely for the mess we are in when democrats have been in control for 5 years is idiotic. I have heard your point a lot. Just let the democrats spend whatever they want on whatever they want for as long as they want and things will get better. Thank goodness the new crop of Republicans have said enough and are trying to keep us from spending ourselves into oblivion. I suppose if you had kids and they wanted to spend thousands a day you would let them so as not to be an obstructionist? Grow up.

3 years, huh? Look back past November 2010 and you'll see who was running things. You just proved that you are, in fact, genetically stupid.

Excellent post and you are SPOT ON! That is exactly what the TP/GOP's game plan has been since the minute President Obama stepped into the White House and they don't care how many innocent American citizens they take down in the process.

Wow, sheep are still spouting the "obstruction" line, unreal.

Are you also mad at how Dems were once again "obstructed" by the American voters at the elections in NY and Arizona?

Just wait until you see the amount of "obstruction" Americans deliver at the polls in 2012 and 2014.

Who is it that failed to pass budgets for 2009,2010 and 2011, and now 2012 because the Senate didn't pass a 2012 budget even though the Republican controlled house passed a 2012 budget 6 months ago. The House passed nine of the 12 Appropriatians bills for 2012 and sent them to the Senate where they have languished.

How can a country be confident our goverenment is doing there job and trying to get us going in the Right Direction when it is the Democrat Controlled Senate that has failed to do its Constitutional Duty of Budgeting the Federal Governments spending for 4 years now?

The problem is, John, republicans have already spent us into oblivion. Obama is trying to dig out and get employment moving and he's been obstructed at every turn. I'm sick of hearing about Obama spending. Other than the stimulus all he has done is cut. So you guys continue to whine about spending because Faux tells you too. But wake up, look around, he hasn't spent anything. He has proposed that we spend again to at least keep some teachers, fire and police, and construction folks working. At best all this does is keep us from totally tanking. Obama proposed cuts to pay for that. Once again, obstructed by republican tea smokers before they even read the plan. Republicans continue to delude themselves into believing that Taxes are everything and if we only didn't have taxes all would be well. That, is complete and utter horse manure. The whole republican economic line that we've been following since Raygun has proven to be a massive sham and failure. But Reps sure are fearful of anything new coming along. What is going on is plainly clear to anyone not listening to the liars at Faux. We've got one national case of republican induced constipation. If we can manage to push out that Tea turd we might be able to sanely find a path back to prosperity.

Amazing how liberals believe such nonsense just because theyy hear themselves say it. Compare the Bush deficits with Obama with this site - and remember that the Dems, including Obama - controlled both houses in 2007 . They blocked everything Bush tried to do and made him a powerless lame duck. So in fairness ioone should see the chart of deficits here and know that the Dems portion begins in 2007.

http://blog.heritage.org/2011/07/28/the-truth-about-obamas-budget-deficits-in-pictures/

MoonRiver Express the evil that espouses from the hole you call a mouth is the reason our country is in this condition. The fact that you wish your fellow Americans to rot in hell makes you the problem in itself. The way in which you express yourself is akin to a white plantation owner telling his peers it's time to put on the white masks and burn people of a different color at the stake. Your hate is a serious problem and you need help! As far as you hating all Republican's you need to start reading history books. How in the hell did the Republicans perform obstructionism after Obama was elected? Beginning in 2009 the Dem's had control of every facet of our legislative system. They had the power to override every veto that the Republicans tried, and for two years they enacted every policy they saw fit. The image of Nancy Pelosi running around with her gavel telling people we'll see what's in the healthcare bill when we pass it turns my stomach. The official projections are that healthcare will increase by over 40% for every American when this bill is officially enacted. Supreme courts in states throughout the Union are throwing out pieces of this bill every month. Liberals for some reason continue to think that the Dem's are looking out for your best interests while they herd you like sheep. I do not know how many times I have to repeat myself but our government serves the people not the other way around. Is it so hard for people to see that every elected legislator on up to Obama are millionaires who collect six figure salaries from our tax money and continue to fill their coffers while we are dying on the vine? But it is acceptable to threaten to cut off Medicaire and SS while they continue to collect their paychecks. Am I the only one who sees a problem with this concept? No balanced budget, no pay for legislators. Fix the budget or resign and let somebody else get in there and get it done. After Obama's win in November of 2008 businesses started pulling back immediattely knowing what kind of ridiculous policies that would come forth over the next two years with the Dem's controlling all legislative power. Why do you people think bigger government is going to solve our problem's? Right now they are raising property taxes on the people who still own homes because the ones who have already defaulted are no longer paying taxes. Shrinking government and letting the private sector manage our needs through hiring citizens is the only way to get out of this mess. I agree with charleyb we will all be on the bread lines soon if we do not find a way to elect people that serve the people. Here's another concept stop the ridiculous entitlement benefits our legislators have so graciously given themselves. They should be on the Obama plan if we have to live with it, but they have unlimited medical and pensions until the day they die. Nobody else in our country has these benefits. It is utterly incomprehensible that aside from our elected officials we have all allowed them to turn us into blind sheep! Nuff said...

Obama and the dems had control of the House and Senate for 2 years - free to do whatever they wanted. They own this suck economy. Big losers! All of them! Stop blaming others you sissies.

Watermoon, you are a typical right wing shrill. When Bush was president it was the democratic congress's fault. When Obama is president, it is the President's fault. Give us all a break, go smoke a bowl of tea and sniff yourself a line of Koch and watch some Faux.

mjb, you are one complete revisionist. Think Blue Dog. Think filibuster. THINK. And then stow your self-rightousness

Amused In The Midwest

I am ashamed you are from the Midwest. Your drone like worship of the Democrat Party is unnerving. You must have moved to the Midwest from one of those blue places.

Chicago Girl you can't possibly be that stupid.

No chicago girl has a good point, for 2 years Obama had a solid majority in the house, and a super majoirty in the congress until the unpopularity of his helath bill turn Ted Kennedy's seat republican. Even then all Obama had to do is flip one republican like Grham or Snow to pass a fillabuster in the senate.

No the major enemy Obama had in the first 2 years was democrats that came from moderate states and distrcits and could be voted out if they did not listen to there consituioncys.

Stop-Loss#5.13: WHOAAAA! I'll have you know all people, especially some posting on this forum, can be as stupid as they choose. Hell, I see some now and then, steal processed, and already retailed stupidity right here on this vine! Steal it right out from under each others noses yet, then repost it as their own! I even witness devout disciples of "Frank Luntz" become tangled up in one of his scripts and misquote him right here on this vine no less! Can't be that stupid indeed!

Touchdown, two words, Pot & Kettle. Your comment indicates an inability to see anything but the republican line. And you're right, that is a huge problem here in the midwest. People here have been in a political rut since the 50s.

charley - With the amount of class warfare being preached by the Liberals being friends with an "evil" rich person might just result in you also becoming a target of the angry mobs out to get their self-declared "entitlements".

You people keep forgetting..........

Anyone who has worked hard, accomplished a lot, made money, and gotten rich, is a criminal!

Didn't you know that the dream of becoming successful and wealthy is a crime?

What did you think it was.......The American Dream?

Al D

Now that was good. Short sweet and to the point. All this lefty/righty crap doesn't solve a thing and is for simple minds. I have to admit that I have thrown out a few political barbs myself but the one thing many have forgotten is what you so aptly said why should we spew criticism toward those who have worked hard and are successful. (As long as greed doesn't kill compassion and common sense.) There are far too many extremists already. This is OUR country and OUR people. Forget the political BS and let's pull together and get our country back on track.

pjam09 - charley - With the amount of class warfare being preached by the Liberals being friends with an "evil" rich person might just result in you also becoming a target of the angry mobs out to get their self-declared "entitlements".

Where did I hear that before? Oh, yeah, now I remember, the interviews I did on my reel to reel tape recorder of Germans that survived World War II, as "The Rich Jews own everything", "The Rich Jews must pay their fair share of taxes", "The Rich Jews control everything", "The Rich Jews are traitors", "The Rich Jews are to blame for everything", etc. as to what Adolf Hitler said, as enforced by the National Socialist German Workers Party (A Political Labor Union, as the later model for the current US Labor Unions, especially the violent US Labor Union "Tactics" after being taken over by the "Italian Organized Crime" as a Profitable "Legit Business with Political Clout" as the Great Depression (Unemployment of 25%) wiped out the previous US Labor Unions.).

(Addressed To President Obama) "We are your Army" - Jimmy Hoffa Jr. (research him and Jimmy Hoffa Sr.). US Labor Unions are only 6-7% of US Work Force, 6-7% are Government Employees Unions.

President Obama and US Labor Unions 8===>o The 86% of US Work Force.

Your entertainment choice perfectly reflects your economic understanding.

Your entertainment choice perfectly reflects your economic understanding.

Me thinks you don't understand either the economy,or the age old art of sarcasm.

Bazinga!

"Now we have the TeaParty destroyers who are going to send this country into an abyss."

No we are trying to save this country from the financial abyss caused by massive entitlement programs conjured up by dumb ass liberals who gave ZERO thought about how to pay for them.

Hey Tracy - these are the same ignoramuses that condemned Martin Luther King's movement. They hate any movement that is not begun by their Divine Federal Bureaucracy!

Tracey Are you talking about the massive entitlements for the American people or are you talking about the MASSIVE entitlements we give to corporations and ALL the other countries because I know which is really strangling America

Lemee see if i understand this correctly....are you saying that if we pay attention and get educated like Linda, then we can go around calling people who disagree with us "Blazing Idiots" and "Morons"?

If nobody respects your opinions Linda, it's because you are disrespectful, rude, and th epitome of "UNeducated".

Nice Linda! You must be a joy to be around.

She sounds like a Rosanne Barr type.

These caricatures that extremists on both sides have of what the "other" side really wants, are probably the main reason that we have the current incivility and deadlock. People create these fantasies to hate, and then forget that they are hating a fantasy.

jock - It goes doubly for the Liberals who also create fantasies to worship and then ignore reality to continue worshiping the fantasy in hopes of protecting themselves from the embarrassment of admitting how foolish and ignorant they were.

Jock, that is possibly the sanest comment ever to show up in these parts.

Between Internet access and a 24-hour news cycle that uses hysteria to boost ratings, Americans are being encouraged to forget individuality and become battling cartoon characters who would rather insult each other than take a long, hard look at complicated issues like the economy. Insults are easy, solutions are hard work.

Good post DanP,......Henry Ford knew prosperity begins with consumers with disposable income at hand, the rich do not create jobs, the consumer market creates jobs and makes rich people

Finally an educated post. Thank you

AMEN!

FINALLY! Someone that has a clue. Thank you wlockridge.

I better run to Aldi and get some can goods, it is the only grocery store I can afford now! You summed it up beautifully!!

I would suggest it's not incompetence or corruption, but rather, that the system is functioning exactly as designed: to extract as much wealth from the middle class as possible. Unfortunately for the ruling elite, this little run is about to come to an end as the ponzi debt scheme has run its course and is now backstopped against nation-states themselves. Just a minor bump in the road. However, rest assured that they are plotting the next new world order that will, once again, put them on the narrow end of the international money funnel while what's left of the middle class is squeezed of any remaining wealth.

Been saying the same thing for months, but all I got for my troubles are two verbal black-eyes and the esteemed title of libbie.... Even when I'm not a liberal.

Damn sheeple.

Good on you, wlockridge.

Let's not forget that, many years ago, we used to have a free and independent press. Now it's owned by big business, panders to big business, and serves the Republicans. Anyone unable to read beyond the BS is destined to be herded to the right.

It's not government corruption and incompetence either. It is fraud and corruption in the financial sector, banks, investment houses, people who create money out of thin air. At best the government is corrupt because this the the trough that they feed from. All of the value these people hold is paper value, the corporations that they hold stock in have sold way more stock than they have assets to back, etc. When you setup a society and economic system based on, well, nothing but wishes, then at some point it is going to collapse. And here we are...

Amused in the Midwest, Our government helped them do this to the US and a bunch of other countries, Then gave them billions which they distributed to.... Wait for it ....... THEMSELVES

Wlockridge: The problems we face are threefold!

#1 Spending more than we take in for way too long.

#2 Thinking government can take care of all of us.

#3 Population growth unchecked and unsustainable.

Al D

Another great post without an acid tongue. Careful Al all the doomsdayers and naysayers on both political sides who spend all their waking hours spewing hate here will have to face reality. Then they'll start attacking you. Seriously some of these folks need to get a real life. They are on these political threads every waking hour. I know they are addicted but some of them just don't get it.

How sad is it that your idea of "American ideals" is wasting more taxpayer money on more "stimulus"?

This is why Democrats are going extinct; a total inability to listen to the people or learn from their mistakes.

By the way, Rick Perry never suggested that Texasa secede from the union. That was a lie perpetratted by the main stream media reporter. Same source that told you about the Obama plan being endorsed by so many.

People will soon forget all about this latest attempt by Obama to actualize his communist ideal of redistributing wealth when the House begins to uncover the three real scandals. Giving guns to Mexico cartels, the crony capitalism where he is using failing Green corporatiions to pay off campaign contributors, and the even worse example of his cronyism where he put pressure on the general to lie to Congress to portect the contributor deeply invested in a company that was putting the GPS defense system in danger. Even though all three are being investigated in COngress you won't hear about it in the Obama controlled main stream media. If you want to be ahead of the curve you must watch Fox News and especially the Fox Business Network. It is no wonder that these are becoming the top news networks in teh country as independents and even some Democrats are deciding that news is more than parroting the White House talking points.

Democrats will be scrambling to find someone to run again Obama in the primary in the coming months - count onn it.

Thanks for pointing this out. The fact is that during Obama's first 2 years in office the economy had reversed its slide and was seeing significant job growth:

http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-jobs-lost-in-the-bush-and-obama-administration-2010-2

Since the Republicans regained "control" of the House, we have seen complete stagnation. Not even one serious Jobs bill brought to the floor by Speaker Boehner. The Republican approach to governing is to say, "My way or the highway". Well, this is simply not going to work when the Dems have both the Presidency and the Senate leadership - and they know it.

Republicans like to beat the "Obama's policies haven't worked" drum, but you can't blame Obama's policies when you won't let him enact them. What are Republicans afraid of? I'll tell you what: Job Growth, GDP Growth, Economic Recovery, but mostly Obama's Re-election!

Higgi, the jobs bill with do nothing but waste another half-trillion dollars. Fully one third of the President's deficit reduction bill is based on ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the deficit reduction will take 10 years to be realized as opposed to the stimulus, oops sorry jobs, bill that will be spent immediately. And there are no signs that the government has any intention of stopping the drunken spending spree after Stimulus part 22 - oops sorry, jobs bill.

And don't forget that they also had control of both Houses the last two Bush years. Compare the economy in January 2007 to where it is today. And then stand aside to avoid the liberal who vomits the lie that it would have been so much worse if Obama had not acted. Somehow they don't allow the same argument that our economy would have been so much worse had Bush not invaded Iraq. But of course, no conservatwive is so stupid or so corrupt as to make such a silly statement.

Higgi are you serious? Obama had stopped the slide in the first 2 years and we had created significant jobs???? The first 2 stimulus packages were a complete failure and it has been clearly pointed out they DID NOT work. The thought that throwing money at the problem a third time will work is completely and utterly ridiculous. The only thing it does is create the American taxpayer a much deeper hole to dig out of.

Either walk outside, wake up and open your eyes to what is really go on or follow the rest of the lemmings off the cliff they will soon drop from.

Higgy, lets not forget the four trillion dollars of borrowed money that did result in that wonderful turn around,

I guess I would have to agree.. . now what? ask Spain for advice?

"Who in the hell every concluded the recession ended in 2009?"

Math. Recessions are defined by economic contraction. Then we need a Recovery to get back to where we were before. The recession ended in 2009, but the recovery has sputtered, expecially now that the stimulus has worn off.

The recession never ended. The markets still go up and down during a recession but ultimately remain low.

I've got a democrat idea. Let's call people names while we do nothing.

Rumblebee - ...and demand more money to buy votes.

pjam

Are you married? If you are I pity your spouse because you are the most negative, hateful, unhappy person

I have ever seen. Take a happy pill and please see a psychiatrist because you need help.

If by hope you mean the hope (and change) that Obama promised, then you are correct and happily it is just beginnning. The American Way never espoused the communist ideal of the redistribution of wealth by force of Federal Bureaucracy. That was the failed Russian way.

Twenty five years ago we had Ronald Reagan, Johnny Cash and Bob Hope.

Now we've got Barak Obama, no cash, and no Hope!!!

DShot if you think Obama has somehow helped the problem you are very wrong. He has only helped to make it worse. This is an issue that didn't start that didn't start with Bush and isn't going to end with Obama. Republicans and Democrats alike are responsible for where we are at along with every registered voter in the USA.

We don't get here without us voting in the politicians that helped get us here and that started many years ago. We don't get out of it relying on any idea either party has unless they are willing to let the inevitable happen and take what comes from the people of America. People have got to understand we are part of the problem and by allowing Obama to throw more money at a problem, that simply can't be fixed by covering it up with money, we are allowing him to create a bigger problem. Eventually it will collapse and there will be nothing we can do it about it. Once it collapses we will come out of it when we have a one world currency and we all know where I am headed with this. Its coming you better be prepared.

Sounds just like text book Stalin-ism.. .Me I prefer to make my own decisions, and for Tvar stop listening and think for yourself.. .

This is what's happening.

A Boom in Corporate Profits, a Bust in Jobs, Wages
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2011/07/22/AP-A-boom-in-corporate-profits-a-bust-in-jobs-wages.aspx#page1

Our largest and richest corporations are sitting on almost $2 trillion in profits and are not reinvesting in America and American jobs. Because many consumers are not employed or under employed, and because of Wall Street speculation driven inflation with oil and food cost increasing, consumers are consuming less in non essential categories.

excuse me for noticing, these these are the one and the same corporations...

How Our Largest Corporations Made $170 Billion During Great Recession And Paid No Taxes

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2011/06/01/how-our-largest-corporations-made-170-billion-during-great-recession-and-paid-no-taxes/

So what's happening is they are paying little or no taxes, making huge profits, and sitting on those profits instead of creating jobs. It's called the old hog snout in the profits trough attitude. With Republican tax loopholes for corporations, the trough becomes a hog wallow. And when you factor in the one and the same corporations outsourcing jobs and factories to other countries, I would say this looks like ECONOMIC TREASON AGAINST AMERICA.

I protest people who protest so......no....no

Thank you. That's exactly what I've been saying.

Ellis Baumgarner it isn't like our economy would be better off without a global economy as we have created many of these issues. I agree with you on rebuilding countries but it was our desire to go n there without a declaration of war. We have spent way too much in Iraq and Aghanistan and should have never been in Iraq but this is what happens when we think we have to invade a country we have no business in and most Americans wanted it. So our problems begin here.

Nobody can help it. Great Depression is going to pale! This is a deflationary crash. Less income is the normal now. What is deflation? Let me explain shortly. When we borrow, banks create money. They do not lend existing money. In fact, they only create a promise to pay you. All bank accounts are promisses to pay you. When we write a check, it works like money, but the person who takes our check puts it back to the bank. So the bank does not really pay out any money. Here is how banks create money:

www.tradingstocks.net/html/banks_create_money.html

Almost ALL of our money supply is created this way. It is called bank credit. When we borrowed it for the last 50-100 years, we promised to pay it back with interest! The interest portion is not even created yet. It was supposed to be created when we borrowed more in the future. But now the borrowing and lending has stopped! There is an expectation that money supply will grow so that we can earn principal+interest and pay it back, but if money supply shrinks then it becomes impossible to earn enough to pay back what we owe. This is called deflation. Money supply is deflating. This is why the government allowed sub-prime! So that more people would borrow and more money would get generated. This way they postponed the crash. But now there is nobody left to borrow. Years of inflated bank credit is deflating now. If money supply deflates 50%, then all prices / salaries will decrease. We must get used to it. Read this book, it is a must:

www.tradingstocks.net/html/conquer_the_crash.html

It's simple. Old debt can not be paid without new income - taxes. The middle class can no longer feed the burden of the unwilling and fly the filthy rich to there many vacation destinations. Trying something is better than doing nothing. Congress is a marriage- when one chooses not to give a little, it's over. Digging in heals for political gain at the expense of the hard working, drowning American people is outrageous. Maybe it's time to elect a contractor, stewardess, grocery clerk or electrician to Congress - I'm sure they'd get it right.

Bassett4, there is absolutely nothing short of letting the bottom fall out that fill fix this. You cannot generate enough new taxes to fix our current problem. Continuing to throw money onto the problem will only make it worse and our debt bigger. The only fix, as someone has already said, is collapse. There is simply no other way. Nothing, as was originally thought, is too big to fail.

The country's debt is **NOT** what is causing us to fall into a double-dip recession. The dying of the middle-class is. In other recessions, they'd carry enough purchasing power to restart a moribond economy. And why is this? Go ask the US companies that have created a total of 4.5 millions jobs oversea's since this recession began (and basically a net result of zero, here at home).

Until people refuse to understand that fact and to coerce the US companies to play the "honor game", rather than encouraging a free-for-all, we do not stand a chance....

to true

Worldview.....
Bring back those 4.5 million jobs and more, and you'll see how fast this economy will start to turn around and recover !! Any idiot in Washington and corperate america who can't see that... should lose their job and the support of the american consumer...!!